WA Lovejoy?

[gnomus]

I've had my table a few years now and have always been intrigued by the small plates/plaques at the ends.

I've attached a couple of pictures of the plates. I'd be interested to hear anything about Mr Lovejoy and his record.

First picture is the plaque at the baulk end.

20.05.13 Snooker Table 003.jpg

The second image is from the black end of the table:

20.05.13 Snooker Table 008.jpg

[100-uper]

Walter Lovejoy was English Amateur Billiards champion in 1904 and turned professional later that year. For a long time he was regarded as one of the few professionals to successfully graduate through that route.

He became closely linked with billiard table manufacturers Cox and Yeman, being employed as a tutor at their showrooms in Brompton Road. It was supposed to be here that he developed the "cradle cannon" position which he introduced to the public in a match against Cecil Harverson in January 1907, making a break of 607. This sparked a season of big breaks by various professionals, which culminated with Tom Reece's famous 499,135 in July of that year.

The break of 2,257 was made by Lovejoy in a match of 8,000 up against Walter Pindar at St. James' Hall, Pease Street, Hull, and it was a world record break at that time. He also made another break of 1,211 in the same match, which had fallen short of the existing record of 1,825 set by Reece. The table is advertised (below) as being one made by Cox & Yeman, and was specially installed for the match. The other plate on the table is for a later job on the cushions, probably 1930s.

[gnomus]

That's fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to post such a detailed reply - with attachments. Would you happen to have a larger size scan of the Lovejoy photo (or know where I could get one)? I am wondering if I shouldn't have his picture up in my billiards room. (594 x 926 pixels is a little on the small size.)

Please excuse my chutzpah in asking.

Best wishes

[100-uper]

Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send the picture I have on file. It was scanned from The World of Billiards magazine which was published on 27th May 1908. My file copy is only 256Kb which would allow it to be reprinted at the size it appeared in the magazine. Although I would normally have access to the original I am currently outside the UK and away from my library, so that's the best I can do at the moment.

[Geoff Large]

Howarth nutthall was a billiard Table Repair company and mainly did Naffi tables ,
They where located in Lenton nottingham , on lenton boulevard and the Castle boulevard junction at the point of Sherwin road junction .
they where around upto the 1960s I think , as a Billiard fitter in the nottingham Area I often come across their re-rubber plates .
You have a nice piece of Billiards history with the Lovejoy connection , I have done work a couple of tables with Joe Davies played on this table plaques on them one in a church basement Derby and another in the Mansfield area.
Have you a full photo of the table ?

Geoff
www.gclbilliards.com

[gnomus]

Howarth nutthall was a billiard Table Repair company and mainly did Naffi tables ,
They where located in Lenton nottingham , on lenton boulevard and the Castle boulevard junction at the point of Sherwin road junction .
they where around upto the 1960s I think , as a Billiard fitter in the nottingham Area I often come across their re-rubber plates .
You have a nice piece of Billiards history with the Lovejoy connection , I have done work a couple of tables with Joe Davies played on this table plaques on them one in a church basement Derby and another in the Mansfield area.
Have you a full photo of the table ?

Geoff
www.gclbilliards.com

Thanks for the info Geoff. I would be interested in finding out where the table was between the match in Hull and my house.

I will post a few more pictures of the table to this thread - I assume you want to see legs and such like. Let me know if you want anything specific. It will take me a few days because I am away from home at present.

I am not all that happy with the bolt covers (I'm not sure if that is the correct term). I'll explain more when I post the pictures.

Regards

[100-uper]

Lovejoy was on a provincial tour at the time, and normally I would have expected a sponsoring billiards firm to have followed him around, taking the same table with them. On this occasion however, that was not the case. His matches before and after the one with Pindar at Hull were against Charles Dawson, the schedule running like this:

Monday 11th–16th March 1907 v. Charles Dawson at the Adega Billiard Hall, Huddersfield.
Monday 18th-23rd March 1907 v. Walter Pindar at St. James' Hall, Hull.
Monday 25th–30th March 1907 v. Charles Dawson at the Albany Rooms, Southport.
Monday 1st-13th April 1907 v. Charles Dawson at St. George's Hall, Liverpool.

Dawson however, had an agreement with Riley's to use their tables, and being the senior player, all these matches were played on a table of their make. Consequently the table shipped to Hull by Cox & Yeman was either taken all the way back to London after the match, or sold at that location, and I would suspect that every effort was made to achieve the latter. The fact that it was reconditioned thirty years later by a Nottingham based firm suggests that it didn't travel very far in that time.

[Geoff Large]

youre bolt covers on the legs are known as Knee panels or on some tables just buttons

Cox and Yeman did some very large Horseshoe type corner pocket plates , these have long tapered square lugs on them , and over time they do have a habit of becoming very loose and begin to sag down .
They also did some very fancy cushion bolt covers made out of metal gold painted or gilded with a brass centre screw , if youre's had this on and are missing , you may still have the cushion bolts with a hole drilled and tapped out in the centre of the slot for these brass screws .
I work on a table now and again in Nottingham city Centre that is a nice Cox and Yeman , it belongs to the Robin hood Rifles Club , the room have decommisioned old boar war and 1st world war items on the walls it is like a museum in there , some of the flowers are missing off the cushions bolts just on the end cushions , and some clever person has used large Brass shell caseings as covers in their place .

It would be almost impossible to find every owner of the table , my guess is the table was sold off for a private house or club somewhere between Hull and London if st james hall was just an exhibition match and the table had to be dismantled and removed after .
What area of the country are you from ?
Howarth Nutthall re-rubber badges are all around Lincoln , Nottingham , Derby and Leicester ETC ,
Gents , then Elstons then Elston & hopkin Billiards ltd would have been his main rivals in the nottingham Area , I do not know much about him to be honest apart from one rumour that he put his head in a Gas oven and commited suicide , but then I heard that was his son , if true then a tragic tale , but one club very near to Nutthalls premises in Lenton have members that did know him and thats where the rumour came from .

so you have a bit more information there .

[100-uper]

Howarth Nuttall was reported to have died on June 1st 1952 "after a six-months' illness." I don't have reference to this being suicide, but I don't know the nature of the illness either. The business was carried on by his wife and son (Jock Nuttall) after his death, although I'm not sure how long for, as they drop off the radar very soon after this.

Howarth, in his prime, was a prolific businessman, engaging in many areas both within and outside snooker and billiards. I seem to remember reading that he was a Director of Nottingham Forrest football club during the second war as was credited with keeping the club going when on the point of collapse.

According to his obituary, he began life as an engineer, and during the first world war was presented with a gold watch for his courage during a serious explosion in a Northern munitions factory. After that war he went into partnership with Yorkshire professional, Harry Holt, but later set up on his own. In 1934 organised the final of the World Professional Snooker Championship, between Joe Davis and Tom Newman, which was played in two stages at Nottingham and Kettering. He also owned at least one billiard hall in Nottingham.

I suspect your table plate was made and fixed some time before the second world war as by 1948 they were trading as "Howarth Nuttall & Son" and I would expect any plates produced in the post-war period to refect this.

The picture below was published in 1952

[Geoff Large]

I think it was jock Nutthall that committed suicide , the Lenton liberal club was a stones throw away from the old Tin chapel that Howarth Nutthall had set his billiards business up in , I have a link to a story about the Tin chapel and with referance to Nuthalls .

http://www.lentontimes.co.uk/images/...istener_27.htm

The next lodger was Howarth Nuthall, more familiarly known as Alf, who converted part of the basement into a billiard hall. In the rear he carried out repairs to billiard tables. Besides his activities at the tin chapel, Mr. Nuthall was well known in Nottingham as a promoter of exhibition games of snooker and billiards, when some of the country's top players were matched against each other. Mr. Nuthall held a number of these events at the Liberal Club on Lenton Boulevard.

A couple of passages from that link refer to Howarth and Jock Nutthall

Returning to the tin chapel's basement, at some unknown point in time, Mr. Nuthall had decided to close the billiard saloon and expand his workshop area. Kelly's City Directory for 1953 describes Mr. Nuthall as a billiard table maker. Quite possibly he had always produced the odd one or two tables, and if so, this side of the business together with repairs had gradually proved more profitable than entertaining the players themselves. On his death, his son, Jock, continued the business until his own untimely death in the late 1950s.

I think the referance to his own untimley death in the late 50s , was the rumour that I had heard from the old boys at the Lenton liberal club and the referance to suicide and gas oven , where I used to maintain the tables for Elston and Hopkin billiards in the 1980s .
you get talking to the old boys in these clubs and it just came out in conversation that Howarth Nutthal had a billiard business across the road from there. and had comitted suicide , then on another visit it was his son who had not Howarth . Hence me not knowing who it was son or Father , now after reading the above link it was Jock .
All I can think of was the business must have been on the decline in the late 50s and early 60s ,

With the link in that article also refering to clement piano's as tennents of the chapel , in the 1990s elston & hopkin used clements wharehouse to store snooker tables .

The billiard hall Nutthall owned must have been the one in the Tin chapel , the hopkin Family had around 13 snooker halls dotted around nottingham to Mansfield . elston had one on Broad street and another on goldsmith street , Hopkins main snooker hall was in hyson green at the burnaby Hall .
you can still see some old cue's around with Burnaby hall and J.S.hopkin written in the ivory , the same with Elston's and Broad street . which previousley belonged to John Gent the largest billiard table manufacturer ever to produce tables in volume out of nottingham .
and there are plenty of Howarth Nutthall cues around nottingham too . and on ebay .

[gnomus]

Thanks again for all this information. I'm now able to post some more pictures of the table. First off Geoff, I live in a small village just outside of Retford, Notts. I've had the table ~10-11 years. It was purchased (and installed) by a firm known as Anthony & Pykett.

Some views of the table first:

24.05.13 Table 007.jpg

24.05.13 Table 004.jpg

I think my pockets are on the tight side:

24.05.13 Table 010.jpg

As regards the bolt issue - my bolts do have a threaded hole drilled into them. The knee panels are not original. They look like this:

20.05.13 Snooker Table 012.jpg

They are stained pine. They were fitted using a brass wood screw. The method used to fit them was by insertion of a sliver of wood (possibly matchsticks) into the threaded hole on the bolt. Soon after the table was fitted the buttons started pinging off the table - I assume when a knee made contact with them. I have tried re-inserting them, but that is a hit and miss affair. Some are tight and some will just fall off again. Here is what is a "wooded-up" bolt head looks like:

20.05.13 Snooker Table 010.jpg

I'd really like to get a solution to this. I don't know, however, if the threads on the bolts will have been knackered by the wood plus brass screw job that was done to them.

I hope that gives you a better idea. Let me know if you'd like some different views.

[Incidentally, I am relatively new to the forum. All of the above pictures appear as small thumbnails in this post and have to be "clicked" to appear at full size. Others (100-uper, for example) can post full size images within their posts. How do you set this up?]

[Geoff Large]

the second photo down is the knee panel that hides the frame bolts

The buttons are cushion bolt buttons and not original

best to take them off and drill out the match stick and retap a new thread in .

I know a firm that could turn new bttons for you ( Cheshire Billiards near Scunthorpe ) , they where available in wood and the metal flower design when the table was new from Cox and yeman .
The pocket plate is the large horse shoe design , you will have difficulty finding leathers for these as normal broad bow are not large enough .

one thing I will point out , the frame looks like a burroughs and watts fluted leg , you may have ahybrid table made up of cox and yeman slate and cushions on a B&Watts frame .

I do not have any Cox and yeman booklets of their tables to see if they made a fluted leg version like the burroughs and watts design , but experiance of working on cox and yeaman tables , I have never seen one with this leg design , but plenty of B&watts .
Maybe 100 upper may have one ?

Anthony & Pykett are nottingham based ( I do know Brian Anthony and Mick Pykett now a Prison officer ) so it was prob a table picked up local to nottingham by them before resale , but they should have sorted the button and screw issue . although I have seen this problem many times , and it depends what sort of money you where paying as to how much of a restoration you had or buy as seen .
you could try getting old brass gun shells and cutt them down drill an hole in the centre , get some brass screw bolts that are same thread as the bolts , they do look good all polished up .
They do a shell the bolt diameter size , but where you would get them from is another matter , maybe army cadet , or army surplus store , you would want used ones not live shells just the caseings .

I use photo bucket to put my photo's up . or links to my web page . or a site with a photo on .

look up ryanah147 on this forum private message him he is over in Ireland , but he did mention in another thread about cox and yeman pocket plates that he had a set of the metal flower rosetts for these bolt heads from an old cox and yeman table , they may also come with the centre brass bolt .

[gnomus]

Geoff

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

... The buttons are cushion bolt buttons and not original best to take them off and drill out the match stick and retap a new thread in...

Erm ... I think you may just have over-estimated my skills as a handyman there. Is this something I could get someone (such as yourself) to do for me?

I know a firm that could turn new bttons for you ( Cheshire Billiards near Scunthorpe ) , they where available in wood and the metal flower design when the table was new from Cox and yeman .

This sounds like the sort of thing I might be after. Have you any idea what sort of cost I might be looking at for them (even a rough ballpark figure would do).

The pocket plate is the large horse shoe design , you will have difficulty finding leathers for these as normal broad bow are not large enough .

I am beginning to wonder if the table needs a recover, with cushion re-rubbering (I've had it for around 11 years). What implications will this "leathers" issue cause? Is there a workaround for this?

I have noticed that if the ball is hit into the pockets firmly then there is a tendency for it to bounce out - this is especially the case on the middle pockets. Is this a leather problem?

... one thing I will point out , the frame looks like a burroughs and watts fluted leg , you may have ahybrid table made up of cox and yeman slate and cushions on a B&Watts frame .

I do not have any Cox and yeman booklets of their tables to see if they made a fluted leg version like the burroughs and watts design , but experiance of working on cox and yeaman tables , I have never seen one with this leg design , but plenty of B&watts .
Maybe 100 upper may have one ?

Anthony & Pykett are nottingham based ( I do know Brian Anthony and Mick Pykett now a Prison officer ) so it was prob a table picked up local to nottingham by them before resale...

I do remember going to a somewhat chaotic storeroom-cum-showroom in Nottingham. There were tables lying around all over. However, the "bits" for each table did seemed to be piled up together - I suppose it is possible that they could have got mixed up. Or perhaps the table was "hybridized" before A&P got hold of it.

I am fairly sure that the chap I dealt with was called Brian. He was plagued by back pain as I recall.

... you could try getting old brass gun shells and cutt them down drill an hole in the centre , get some brass screw bolts that are same thread as the bolts , they do look good all polished up .

I am struggling to understand what this would look like. Would anyone have any pictures?

I use photo bucket to put my photo's up ...

I was able to use photobucket images when I posted, but I still could nto find a way fo making the image appear larger in the thread.

... look up ryanah147 on this forum private message him he is over in Ireland , but he did mention in another thread about cox and yeman pocket plates that he had a set of the metal flower rosetts for these bolt heads from an old cox and yeman table , they may also come with the centre brass bolt .

I'll do that.

Thanks again for your ongoing help with this Geoff. And once again please excuse my ignorance of these matters.

[jrc750]

.... I was able to use photobucket images when I posted, but I still could nto find a way fo making the image appear larger in the thread...

To make the pics fill the screen you need to copy and paste the "IMG" link next to the pic in photobucket,

ie, next to the pic you will see 4 links like this:
Email & IM
Direct
HTML
IMG

Just click on the bottom one, it will say "copied", then just paste that into your reply on here, easy

[gnomus]

To make the pics fill the screen you need to copy and paste the "IMG" link next to the pic in photobucket,

ie, next to the pic you will see 4 links like this:
Email & IM
Direct
HTML
IMG

Just click on the bottom one, it will say "copied", then just paste that into your reply on here, easy

Like this?



That was easy.. thanks JRC750