Walter Lindrum, a Billards genius at work

[jb134]

Am not overly impressed with that reply 100upper.

For example in his instructional book Smith states he used the same cue for (I think) 29 years and he would be using it still if someone had not been "kind" enough to cut the ferrule off in Australia in 1929.

Perhaps your "sure and certain fact" refers to a different cue.

Perhaps as you say Smith was not always consistent in his statements, however, I feel that to convey your post as being the be all and end all where there is a reasonable body of evidence to the contrary, or at least differing, is a bit unfair.

I have also read several references to the gambling aspect, including matches between the two in the UK where Lindrum took it easy until his backers had got their bets on. Again, given the time passed, this is conjecture but the gambling element was there and in a big way.

Unlike the cue anecdote, I can't cite these references as I can't remember where I read them, but read them I did. I've a funny feeling one was in a book by Clive Everton but I'm just not sure.

[100-uper]

On Willie Smith's cue …..
Willie Smith interviewed for the Manchester Evening Chronicle, January 1930 ….
"I had played the very first stroke of my third game with Walter Lindrum in Australia. I let drive at a forcing cannon, and half-an-inch of my previous cue went up the table after the cue ball, hit the cushion, and was picked up in the third row of the audience. After 28 years of continuous play my old pal let me down at the most critical point in my career." ( Billiard Player, February 1930 ) Smith's cue is reputed beyond repair, owing to the wood being "more or less rotten." He had used it during the whole of his playing career. ( BP1129 p.22 )

On Gambling …. (selected extracts from many)
Betting on billiards is dead, and no well-conducted billiard room or club allows betting or gambling of any kind. ( BP1033 p.12 ) Every undesirable attribute, gambling in particular, is now as rare as it used to be common in the days of the old pool rooms. ( BP0438 p.1 )

[jb134]

We have both read differing accounts of the same situations then. thats why anecdotal evidence should always be cited as such.

Many thanks for the info.

[JP1]

You are incorrect, NO ONE defeated WL on level terms, he retired from competitive play in 1950 undefeated holding 57 world records.

You can read every step of WL career in the excellent book about him by Andrew Ricketts entitled Walter Lindrum Billiards Phenomenon, it also deals with all the matches WL had, and they were all exhibitions, against Willie Smith, WS was an arrogant kind of chap who was not liked by anyone in the game, he was a brilliant all round player but to suggest he was in WL class is a joke, Willie was friendly with Joe Davis right up to the point when Davis beat him on level terms, from that point on the two never exchanged a single word. Willie Smith created and lived of the then controvery about B&W contracts which cheated WL out of a lot of money and the cloths used, by all accounts Willie does not come out smelling very nice, he was a known cheat on and off the table.

[JP1]

Here is a direct quote from the book of the late Robert (Bob) Marshall who was a protege of Walter Lindrum, Bob passed away aged 95 a few years ago.

" I had been invited to play a match against Walter Lindrum in St. Georges Hall in Hay Street, near the Town Hall, and I was looking forward testing myself against such famous player. I had been making breaks of 700 - 1000 and was fairly confident of being able to acquit myself honourably. I was still basing my game on playing the red ball but my top of the table technique was by now quite well developed. But my game against Walter was an absolute disaster. From the break off my ball became jammed in the baulk pocket and it was from this position that I had the privilege to watch Lindrum score a rapid fire break of over 1500 with only the red ball.
When my turn at the table finally arrived I made a huge effort to put Walters break out of my mind and just concentrate on my own game. I managed a break of 252 which I considered a miserable reply. But Walter came around the table and shook my hand. " Bob that break was better then mine," he said. I thought it was very nice of him to say so but I did not believe him. I said " How do you make that out, Mr. Lindrum. You scored over 1500 and I scored 252 ." Thats not the point, he replied, nine out of ten of the worlds top amateurs I know would have been crushed by that 1500. They would have miscued or lost concentration to score, you managed to score 252, you will win your world titles son, you have got it. Those comments meant a great deal to me and stayed in my mind for the rest of my life. ""

End of quote.

Now this is from a player of Mike Russells ability, many of Bob's IBSF world records still stand today and he was one of the finest amateur billiard players the world has seen.
When Robbie Foldvari won his World Professional billiards title in 1986 upon his return to Melbourned he stopped over in Perth to challenge the then 77 year old Bob Marshall to a series of billiards matches, Robbie a slow but tactically brilliant player who has scored 1000 breaks himself however proved no match against Bob who easily won the encounter.
That would put in some context the difference of the 1930 and todays top players and Walter Lindrum, Joe Davis pointed out in his book, the breaks came my way, that Lindrum could beat all of us as he pleased and that 7000 points was not enough when playing against Walter, which of course made any semblance of sporting competion a joke, how would you feel if you had won the world professional billiard championship while receiving 7000 points start???? it also nulifies any claim that Willie Smith who was beaten by Joe Davis on even terms would fare any better against Lindrum, the stats are all still here for everyone to see.

[Oldgit]

A friend of mine in Australia was a good friend of Bob Marshall. This is what he sent me a couple of years ago:-

All I have heard about Walter comes from Bob Marshall, Ray Launder a very nice man I knew in Sydney for many years, Tom Cleary and Jim Long, Ray. like Horace had immense flair on the table but no match temperament, when John Campbell and Warren King came along Ray who was their senior by a fair bit, would always loose in the Semi Finals, the few times he got his head together he demolished both of them, Ray was and I believe still is the only one in Australia to have made 6 maximum breaks, two in one afternoon, and I can vouch for them as I played in the same team with Ray, all of them were in awe of Walter, Tom Cleary especially, Tom toured for the War effort a lot with Walter, he was on the receiving end of all of the frames of Snooker they played, in Billiards Walter never played anyone, he always gave solo performances, Tom would play 2 or three shots to begin with then he would introduce Walter who would start by saying Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen, my Name is Walter Lindrum and I shall try and make a thousand break for you tonight, and Tom said, he always did, Tom was a former IBSF World Champion, no slouch himself on the table and thousand break player in his own right, he was very bitter that Walter always seemed to fob him off when Tom wanted to learn about Nursery Canons, in the end Tom gave up, he said that if he could get the hang of them regular thousand breaks would not be beyond him, he explained it that way that in his opinion Walter did not know how to teach others what he did himself instinctively, Marshall said very much the same, Jim Long is the only one Walter coached in Nursery Canons and he did enjoy some success but nothing like Walter, Tom said the man was just phenomenal to watch the way he was able to switch, almost at will from TOT or Open Billiards to Nursery Canons and visa versa, one Exhibition they played at Tom did the scoring for Walter who had made a 5000 break, as Tom was about to inform the audience that this was jet another Lindrum World Record, Walter took him aside and said Tom I actually missed one Canon when I was on 3000 + so we cant count this one.

Tom was very fond of Joe Davis who was in Australia at that time to challenge Walter but the challenge soon faded after Lindrum had caught Joe on the 4rd day of the scheduled 7 day match even after giving him 7000 points start, Davis said there was little point to pursue the match, paying audience also stayed away the difference was to stark, no interest, Joe was right when he said Walter was a genius on the table whose talents were lost on the general public who just took it for granted that oh yes this is Lindrum so he'll win, Joe offered Walter to let him win a few games to create some interest and bring the paying audience back, but Walter would have none of it, in his book the breaks came my way Joe has more interesting things to say about Lindrum, Tom Cleary, after seeing Joe's cue and how short it was, immediately went about hacking 4" of the top of his own cue, which was just on 54" in length, Tom said it improved his game at once.

Oldgit

[JP1]

I vaguely remember he was bestowed something like sportsman of the century. Walter, wasn't rich when he died but he did raise hundreds of thousands of pounds for the war effort doing exhibitions. Just to add to my last post, Walter's dad told Walter on one ocassion to have a rest from practice & go and play with his mates, but what Walter did was go to another billiard hall and ask the proprietor for the use of a table where Walter proceeded to practice the routine again. As Walter said there will never be another player like him because no one would dedicate the time to practice like he did, how true.

Yes sad, Walter died a poor man on vacation at the Queensland Gold Coast in 1960, money did not mean much to him, he thought nothing of giving a billiard table away to charity, the cues which he had custom made for him by a north american cue maker (Walter hated the B&Watts and Peradon cues) and one of which was his last playing cue, ended up more often then not as a gift to players he coached, he was awarded the AO but the richly deserved knighthood was never bestowed on him on account of his divorce, his family to this day laments that decision as it would have provided some financial benefits as well as reccognition.

[JP1]

So many times I read on this forum that we should not think about our technique just concentrate on the pot, I suppose Waltrer proves that once you know the shot he can execute it with no thought to where he is standing. I too watch his technique and think how does he do that playing the way he does.

Due the fact that he was a natural right hander but played billiards left handed his stance and cue action was one of a roundhouse type which is generally not considered ideal for either billiards or snooker, in essence it does not matter how you stand so long as you are able to deliver the cue in a straight line,look what Alex Higgins did, the other aspect is being able to see the potting or cannon angle, you have to have a kind of third eye, Ronnie O Sullivan does what he does because he has a natural straight cue action so the demons that attack most others seem to stay away and allow him to concentrate on position, Walter Lindrum was also able to play with either hand and I think that even some of the small footage you have quoted here on you tube show him doing that, if you have not noticed, it just shows you what a natural this guy was, I have seen and inspected Walters last playing cue in detail the two features you notice immediately is how short and how light it was, he also used an 11 mm tip.:snooker:

[100-uper]

You are incorrect, NO ONE defeated WL on level terms, he retired from competitive play in 1950 undefeated holding 57 world records.

You can read every step of WL career in the excellent book about him by Andrew Ricketts entitled Walter Lindrum Billiards Phenomenon, it also deals with all the matches WL had, and they were all exhibitions, against Willie Smith, WS was an arrogant kind of chap who was not liked by anyone in the game, he was a brilliant all round player but to suggest he was in WL class is a joke, Willie was friendly with Joe Davis right up to the point when Davis beat him on level terms, from that point on the two never exchanged a single word. Willie Smith created and lived of the then controvery about B&W contracts which cheated WL out of a lot of money and the cloths used, by all accounts Willie does not come out smelling very nice, he was a known cheat on and off the table.

I assume this comment is directed at me. I really don't know where you get this information, but you are clearly not accessing any contemporaneous literature. Just for the record, here is a list of the people who defeated Walter Lindrum on level terms, not a very long list, but let's give them the proper credit nonetheless:

Monday 8th-20th October 1928 :
McConachy defeated Walter Lindrum by 778 points in a match of 18,000 up in New Zealand

Monday 15th-27th July 1929 :
Willie Smith defeated Walter Lindrum 23,446 22,317 at Sydney

Monday 9th-21st December 1929 :
W. Smith, 23,985; W. Lindrum, 22,884 at Birmingham.

Monday 23rd December 1929 - 4th January 1930 :
W. Smith, 24,719; W. Lindrum, 24,147 at Glasgow.

Monday 10th-22nd February 1930 :
C. McConachy, 24,224; W. Lindrum, 23,787 at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon Street, London.

These are just I few which I can identify, and I'm sure that Clark McConachy in particular can claim many more victories than I have recorded. I would also point out that the scores in the 1933 World Championship Final were W. Lindrum, 21,815; J. Davis, 21,121.

This comment from The Billiard Player June 1933 "There is every indication that the other players are approaching Lindrum's form. When the Australian first came over he showed the public billiards the like of which they had never seen before. But, to-day, although he is in front, the others, are making up lost ground, as the results in the Championship prove." It certainly doesn’t appear that Lindrum could give Davis 7000 at this time, although there was undoubtedly a time when he could. This would seem to be confirmed when Davis travelled to Australia the following year, one of their matches resulting:

Monday 30th July – 11th August 1934
J. Davis, 22,269; W. Lindrum, 21,691 at Sydney.

In the Championship match of October that year, ( of which I have the full daily match reports from Associated Press ) the scoring was very level throughout with Davis finishing in front on six of the twelve days, only to ultimately lose by 875 points. As Lindrum never played a serious match again, I think it's what you might call retiring at the top.

Willie Smith ….
I don't recognise your description of Willie Smith and again can't imagine where you formed your opinions. Here is a press report from his tour of Australia in 1929: "The attendances at the visitor's matches with F. Lindrum were splendid, and from the moment of his initial bow the public made it very clear that they had taken him to their hearts as a favourite. As play progressed his popularity became more pronounced by reason of his very genial manners and apparently happy disposition. There is no Sphinx-like expression on Willie's face nor does he care to be thought deaf and dumb while at the table. He humours his patrons and by his actions and remarks, as occasion offers, he sends all home happy in the knowledge that they have seen a good little sportsman as well as good billiards." ( The Billiard Player, August 1929 )

The suggestion that he and Joe Davis were not on speaking terms is something I have never heard before and isn't really compatible with the fact that they toured together extensively in the 1950s playing both snooker and billiards exhibitions all over England.

In summary and as evidenced by the results above, Smith certainly was in the same class as Walter Lindrum in 1928, and Joe Davis was certainly is his class in 1934. In between is the period of Lindrum's dominance of the game, which is something that nobody can contest.

[jb134]

This is fascitnating. I am also surprised to read of enmity between Davis and Smith, I saw an interview with Smith as a very old man where he talks about Joe with what I would have though some affection.

Has anyone seen the Lindrum exhibition where he has a break and gives an interview, he makes a claim about winning the world title which I have never seen elsewhere.

[JP1]

I assume this comment is directed at me. I really don't know where you get this information, but you are clearly not accessing any contemporaneous literature. Just for the record, here is a list of the people who defeated Walter Lindrum on level terms, not a very long list, but let's give them the proper credit nonetheless:

Monday 8th-20th October 1928 :
McConachy defeated Walter Lindrum by 778 points in a match of 18,000 up in New Zealand

Monday 15th-27th July 1929 :
Willie Smith defeated Walter Lindrum 23,446 22,317 at Sydney

Monday 9th-21st December 1929 :
W. Smith, 23,985; W. Lindrum, 22,884 at Birmingham.

Monday 23rd December 1929 - 4th January 1930 :
W. Smith, 24,719; W. Lindrum, 24,147 at Glasgow.

Monday 10th-22nd February 1930 :
C. McConachy, 24,224; W. Lindrum, 23,787 at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon Street, London.

These are just I few which I can identify, and I'm sure that Clark McConachy in particular can claim many more victories than I have recorded. I would also point out that the scores in the 1933 World Championship Final were W. Lindrum, 21,815; J. Davis, 21,121.

This comment from The Billiard Player June 1933 "There is every indication that the other players are approaching Lindrum's form. When the Australian first came over he showed the public billiards the like of which they had never seen before. But, to-day, although he is in front, the others, are making up lost ground, as the results in the Championship prove." It certainly doesn’t appear that Lindrum could give Davis 7000 at this time, although there was undoubtedly a time when he could. This would seem to be confirmed when Davis travelled to Australia the following year, one of their matches resulting:

Monday 30th July – 11th August 1934
J. Davis, 22,269; W. Lindrum, 21,691 at Sydney.

In the Championship match of October that year, ( of which I have the full daily match reports from Associated Press ) the scoring was very level throughout with Davis finishing in front on six of the twelve days, only to ultimately lose by 875 points. As Lindrum never played a serious match again, I think it's what you might call retiring at the top.

Willie Smith ….
I don't recognise your description of Willie Smith and again can't imagine where you formed your opinions. Here is a press report from his tour of Australia in 1929: "The attendances at the visitor's matches with F. Lindrum were splendid, and from the moment of his initial bow the public made it very clear that they had taken him to their hearts as a favourite. As play progressed his popularity became more pronounced by reason of his very genial manners and apparently happy disposition. There is no Sphinx-like expression on Willie's face nor does he care to be thought deaf and dumb while at the table. He humours his patrons and by his actions and remarks, as occasion offers, he sends all home happy in the knowledge that they have seen a good little sportsman as well as good billiards." ( The Billiard Player, August 1929 )

The suggestion that he and Joe Davis were not on speaking terms is something I have never heard before and isn't really compatible with the fact that they toured together extensively in the 1950s playing both snooker and billiards exhibitions all over England.

In summary and as evidenced by the results above, Smith certainly was in the same class as Walter Lindrum in 1928, and Joe Davis was certainly is his class in 1934. In between is the period of Lindrum's dominance of the game, which is something that nobody can contest.

There have always been the critics and those jealous of Walter Lindrums ability, the scoring averages are there for all to see and they speak for themselves, if you wish to quote actual events you must do so accurate and not use data to support your opinion rather then factual events.

You dont seem to or want to understand that the scores you quote included either a massive start or the dead time after the match was over;

The match you refer to in Sydney against Joe Davis in 1934 included a start of 7000 points for Davis, which Joe Davis in his own book makes reference to as well, the actual points scored were Joe Davis 15269 Walter Lindrum 21691

If you have a personal opinion about Walter Lindrum that is one thing, but you cant re-write history.

How can you possibly be taken serious suggesting that Davis, Smith and the others with a scoring average half of Lindrums are or were his equals ? Willie Smith regardless what the popular press says was regarded as I have said, there is enough information both from Joe Davis biography and Mc Conachy of that, but if you have a bias towards Smith you would not be interested in reading about it.

Do you know of this article published in the Morning Post Dec 1929?

There is no doubt that Lindrum is the finest player the world has ever seen. We used to think that Willie Smith was unbeatable, but in comparison with the Australian artist he is but an imperfect artisan.

Here is what the Melbourne Herald had to say 28 December 1934

The state of affairs prompted Lindrum to recall the ruthless thashing that Smith had handed out to his brother Fred on his trip to England in 1928, Smith had annihilated Fred by 19178 points, to cut the story short, Lindrum later recalled on settling that family debt " I opened the match in what I can only describe, with some feeling of shame, as anantagonistic and almost unsporting spirit.

Lindrum played devastating billiards throughout the fortnight of the match. He released his frustration on Smith with a relentless barrage of breaks in the most unmerciful performance of his career. Lindrum had set out to defeat Smith by a greater margin than the 19 178 points by which Smith had beaten Fred Lindrum. This he achieved with ridicilous ease, being 21 285 points in front when time was called.

Smith had received 12000 points start in that match, in the same class as Walter Lindrum in 1934, I dont think so;;

You believe what you like but you wont be able to alter the facts.

[Mal]

Willie Smith ….


The suggestion that he and Joe Davis were not on speaking terms is something I have never heard before and isn't really compatible with the fact that they toured together extensively in the 1950s

Interesting thread and to read about Walter Lindrum - who I knew was the best billiards player, but didn't know anything in depth - has been fascinating. Just watched a few clips on youtube which show his mastery on the table. So thanks to the various contributors for that!

The quote above, I would refer to Joe Davis autobiography who describes how they didn't get on for a while, having previously been friendly but that this was resolved after a number of years when they arranged a billiards tour (which had some acrimony at the start)

[100-uper]

There have always been the critics and those jealous of Walter Lindrums ability, the scoring averages are there for all to see and they speak for themselves, if you wish to quote actual events you must do so accurate and not use data to support your opinion rather then factual events.
<SNIP>

I really can't imagine why you think that the information I have presented is not factual when in all cases I have given a document reference and even a page number so anyone can take a look for themselves. If you don't have access to the documents mentioned I can supply you with a copy.

I have presented facts, not opinions, but if you want my opinion it is this: Walter Lindrum was the greatest billiard player that ever lived. However, unlike some people, I do not believe he could beat any player on the planet from the day he first picked up a cue to the day he died. Players improve and decline over the years, and what I have tried to indicate from these facts is where the boundaries of his total supremacy lay.

Before he came to England in October 1929, Lindrum had made 60 breaks of 1,000 or over during the whole of his career. In only five months playing he made over 60 thousand breaks, including the World's record of 3,262. ( Burwat Billiard View, April 1930 p.8 )

This was undoubtedly the zenith of his career. It was the 1930-31 season in England when, as you correctly say, he gave 7,000 start to most of the top players (Smith excluded) and was generally successful, although not entirely. Let's look at some more facts

Willie Smith .........
In a match against Clark McConachy in Sydney on 3rd August 1929, Willie Smith made a break of 2,030 ( The Scotsman - Monday, 5th August 1929, page 10 ) Yes, that's the AUSTRALIAN RECORD BREAK. So, in Lindrum's home town, Willie Smith had made a bigger match break than Walter Lindrum had ever made in his life! He then goes on to beat him in three level matches over the next six months. Not in the same class? I is clear that at this period in time Smith was just as likely to beat Lindrum in a level match as vice versa, and should they have still been playing with ivory balls, as Smith had been doing until the previous year ( it is my opinion that ) it would have been Lindrum on the receiving end of a substantial start.

The match you refer to which Lindrum won by 21,285 points was a LEVEL match played at the Farringdon Hall, London, between Monday 10th - 22nd March 1930. ( Billiard Player, April 1930 p.2/6/32 ). It was at this time that Smith conceded that Lindrum was the better player, and nobody doubted it. Smith, who had been World Champion as far back as 1920, then declared "his intention to retire from serious billiards" ( Billiard Player, April 1930 p.3 )

Joe Davis .......
Davis's improvement in form is almost as spectacular as that of Lindrum. I can assure you that all the matches I have quoted in the posts above were played from level start. Lindrum only gave 7,000 start to Davis during the 1930-31 season ( won one and lost one ) and in the 1932-33 News of the World Gold Cup Lindrum conceded 6,000 start to Davis and the other competitors (Newman, & McConachy) and didn't win a match against any of them.

I have previously given evidence that Davis was almost up to the same standard as Lindrum in 1934 and this can be referred to again if you wish, in the knowledge that it is factual.

[Ronnie87]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZsj4BZ8BWU

I hate to be super critical of the finest cue sports player of all time, but does he hit both balls at 8:42 doesnt look like it to me?

[bongo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZsj4BZ8BWU

I hate to be super critical of the finest cue sports player of all time, but does he hit both balls at 8:42 doesnt look like it to me?

I think he does just get the cannon. It is hard to tell because of the bad video quality and the camera moves about but you could just see the cue ball come to a stop and roll backwards very slightly, so he may have just touched it.