Which Rules?

[Lloydinho77]

Often when I play I just query certain rules as they crop up and play whatever way my opponent prefers.

Usually this includes:

You HAVE to play whichever you pot on the break (ie. if you pot one red on the break and no yellows you are reds) if you pot both you can nominate

Two shots DON'T carry - if you pot on the first shot and miss on the next after your opponent fouls that is the end of your go

Only one shot on the black

Nobody seems to mind if you "play backwards" with ball in hand.

If you pot your opponents ball it is a foul regardless of whether you potted your own ball or not, with the exception of when you have a free ball on your first visit after a foul.

Are all these rules synonimous with one particular set of rules or are they just a mismatch of various different rule books.

The reason I ask is because I am curious how I will need to adapt should I enter any local tournaments.

Further to this I've always set up the balls like this:

R
Y R
R B Y
Y R Y R
R Y R Y Y

I was under the impression this was the accepted method in "World Rules" but I know of at least 2 widely accepted methods for racking up the balls. And I've played the same rules since I got my first table aged 7, 12 years ago now so this could be a bit dated.

[Lloydinho77]

Further to this I've always set up the balls like this:

R
Y R
R B Y
Y R Y R
R Y R Y Y

Before anybody says it yeah it was a right angled triangle back in 1997/8

[Russ]

Sounds like the same rules we use and the balls are set up the same.
I know years ago you could play in pubs in different towns and they all seemed to use their own versions of the rules.

Russ

[DeanH]

Hi Lloydinho77, what you describe is the usual “house-rules” that I have come across many times over the years as we pop into different pubs/clubs and I would say they are a mis-mash of various old rules sets, and people have settled on their own comfort zone. The rules you describe here are what I call “old-old-rules” as the pool-league I play in stopped using these rules some time ago, i.e. two changes since.

Which ever tournament you wish to enter should clearly indicate which rules set they will be applying and you would be best to practise these and the code of conduct.

The league I play for has for many years now been under EPA rules also known as “World 8-Ball Pool Rules” or “World-Rules”, see http://www.epa.org.uk/wrules.php for more information, with the exception to Time Allowed (Rule I) which is not followed but we obviously do have an acceptable limit to how long to take a shot

Colour decision, what you describe is the usual “house” rules, in World rules now, they have changed slightly. From the break:
Pot one colour – you can be that colour, regardless of what happens you are that colour.
Pot one colour – you can change colour, but you must pot that new colour to remain that colour, if you fail in the pot, table reverts to “open”.
Pot one of each colour – you have choice, you must verbally nominate the choice. Regardless of what happens you are that choice of colour.
After break, “open” table you don’t have to nominate the colour just pot. Also it has been confirmed that in the “open” situation you can use a red to pot a yellow and be yellow. But only in an open table situation, otherwise, foul – two visits.

Two-shots DON’T carry. This is an old rule and is often in the “house-rules” for lesser players. Currently in the World Rules, the terminology is Two Visits, i.e. a player gains a foul from his opponent, the player has one visit to pot or play his group of balls, as soon as a ball is not potted, that is the end of the first visit, second visit starts. So this is the Shot-Carry scenario.

I always disagreed with “only one shot on the black” interpretation, if the opponent fouls, then I should be allowed to punish him But many people would strenuously (strenuously = shout) say “only one on the black”. No offence to anyone in general but usually they were not the best players

As the rules usually states “you are allowed two visits (i.e. two shots) on your group of balls” and they also say when you pot all your group of colours, the “black is now considered your group”, so why not have two shots.

Play “up the table”, or “backwards”, from a ball in hand has never been a ruling in pool for the 20+ years I have been playing. Obviously I have only come across this rule from Billiards which my late-dad taught me, all those years ago.

The “Combination shot” – “hit one of your group of balls, pot one or more of your group as well as potting one or more of your opponent’s group in the same shot”, was always a favourite of mine but is not allowed in World Rules.

In World Rules the only time you are allowed to hit/pot an opponent’s ball (without incurring a Foul) is when you are foul-snookered and you decide not to pick up the cue ball into the baulk area.

The rack in World Rules is the same as it has been for years except for the swap of the two on the bottom row.
R
Y R
R B Y
Y R Y R
R Y Y R Y

Don’t know why but the league and EPA stipulate this arrangement.
All the best
DeanH

[Lloydinho77]

Thank you, really informative post - exactly what I was looking for.

I always disagreed with “only one shot on the black” interpretation, if the opponent fouls, then I should be allowed to punish him But many people would strenuously (strenuously = shout) say “only one on the black”. No offence to anyone in general but usually they were not the best players

I'm with you - My opponent can foul AND leave my ball safe?! Doesn't seem right to me.

Play “up the table”, or “backwards”, from a ball in hand has never been a ruling in pool for the 20+ years I have been playing. Obviously I have only come across this rule from Billiards which my late-dad taught me, all those years ago.

Does this mean you've never been allowed to shoot "backwards?" or does this mean you can play in any direction you want with ball in hand and always have been able to?

The rack in World Rules is the same as it has been for years except for the swap of the two on the bottom row.
R
Y R
R B Y
Y R Y R
R Y Y R Y

Don’t know why but the league and EPA stipulate this arrangement.
All the best
DeanH

I had a feeling I've been racking up "wrong" but it's how my Dad taught me to do it years ago so... nostalgia and all that.

[DeanH]

Thank you, really informative post - exactly what I was looking for.

Glad to help.

Does this mean you've never been allowed to shoot "backwards?" or does this mean you can play in any direction you want with ball in hand and always have been able to?

Correct, any direction. As far as I can remember pool (and snooker for that matter) never had this rule officially, only billiards. Can anyone confirm this?

I had a feeling I've been racking up "wrong" but it's how my Dad taught me to do it years ago so... nostalgia and all that.

The rack that you showed has been the sequence for many years, so your Dad did not teach you wrong
The rack that I showed is the new one for EPA World Rules, so should not be used if you are not playing to their rules.

As I always say, if the guy in the pub is bigger than me, his rules will do - and also don't 8-ball him too many times :snooker:

All the best
DeanH

[Lloydinho77]

As I always say, if the guy in the pub is bigger than me, his rules will do - and also don't 8-ball him too many times :snooker:

Probably the only rule worth knowing

Thanks for the help

[Watford]

Rubbish tell World rules or nothing then dish repeatedly :snooker:

[snookerpoolman]

Glad to help.



Correct, any direction. As far as I can remember pool (and snooker for that matter) never had this rule officially, only billiards. Can anyone confirm this?




The rack that you showed has been the sequence for many years, so your Dad did not teach you wrong
The rack that I showed is the new one for EPA World Rules, so should not be used if you are not playing to their rules.

As I always say, if the guy in the pub is bigger than me, his rules will do - and also don't 8-ball him too many times :snooker:

All the best
DeanH

Interesting rules debate. Well I play Bapto (British Association of Pool Table Operator) rules - basically it's 2 shots and a free table after any foul. From the break, if you pot any ball (not the Black or White obviously) you can change colours if you nominate and then pot the changed colour, otherwise it's still open table. We play two shots on the black. The only major change in the last 10 years has been the option to have the cue ball replaced to the 'D' (yes we still have the lovely D) after any foul.

We've played these rules for the last 25 years and we have probably the best league locally (out of many). A lot of the World Rules players try to change the rules every year at the AGM (they tried to get rid of the D and make it one shot for a foul on the break at this years AGM, which was on Monday - but fortunately they were voted down and common sense prevailed).

I've had a try at World Rules and even been to Yarmouth for the team and 3 Man events - but never again. My main problem with them is the deliberate foul. It goes totally against the spirit of fair play that should exist on any green baize sport IMO. Why should I be able to pot your ball, cover the pocket with mine, leave an awkward or impossible cue ball, where you gain nothing from me deliberately fouling? It's never right!!!

I know the World Rules lads say it's 'clever' and 'cute' to win by doing this, but na - it aint for me... Call me a luddite if you wish, but as with my example of our league successfully maintaining virtually the same rules for over a quarter of a century - why fix it if it aint broke?

They tell you World Rules was brought in to make the game more attacking - this is not always the case. I've witnessed many a tactical battle that's still took as long a BAPTO game.

As for the 2 shot's issue. In the old days most leagues had either one shot only on the black, or 2 shots, but second shot didn't carry (still played to this day in the Rotherham league).

The reason 2 shots was brought in originally was that games were taking a long time, not just league games but general play as well - operators wanted more money out of the tables, so introducing 2 shots carry speeded up the games.

There were silly rules too - yes some people didn't allow you to play backwards from the baulk line, although this was rare. Another equally stupid one was to do with playing the white ball from the jaws of a pocket. Cant remember the actual rule, but it was daft because you could never in truth say what constituted 'in the jaws' i.e. touching the knuckle? Not touching the knuckle? etc. etc.

Best advice for your area is to join a league and find out what they play. Should be a standard round where you live. Hope it's not World Rules - but that's just my opinion

Try and play against the best player in the team/pub. Watch intensely what they do. Ask them advice if you don't know why they've played a particular shot in a particular way.

2 Golden Rules:-

1. Never attempt a clearance if there's more than 2 balls tied up and you cannot guarantee moving them or making them pottable - why pot 7 if you can't pot 8???

2. If your clearance attempt goes wrong, step back and have another look at them. Don't be afraid to change your route or plan. There's often another way around them.

Hope this helps

Dave, Snookerpoolman

[DeanH]

Hi snookerpoolman

My league team has just changed over to a new league (old one folded) which use EPA World Rules. I used to play for this new league years ago so I am used to the World Rules and my new team mates are getting used to them and we are doing very.
I totally agree with your comments about the delibrate foul, many people like it but I just don't like the unsportsmanship of it. But you must play the cards you are dealt but, hand on heart, I have never played a delibrate foul in any game I have played. That is not saying a few accidental ones where not played in any match I happened to be participating in
My team has its first Interleague competition on Sunday, with all the timing, delibrate fouls that we have been told about.
I shall try to remember to tell you how it goes.
All the best
DeanH

[Watford]

Timing is a pain and mostly unnecessary. Was nearly voted in my league a couple of years back but lost by one vote. Have played under cloack at interleague though.
Inter league games are usually attacking affairs by all accounts. A good job they are too with there being 18 games to play.
When they get get tactical though you do need to know what to do. It might be a steep learning curve to jump straight to that standard. But just dish the balls up and you'll be fine.

I personally don't have a problem with the deliberate foul. The best thing about World rules is the hitting the cushion rule. If you go back to BAPTO or old EPA it seems so slow when people can just tap up to balls for easy snookers. That's probably why they put it into Blackball too.
Don't pot unless you can clear is not a bad idea but is more relevant at old EPA and BAPTO than World rules IMO.

[DeanH]

Timing is a pain and mostly unnecessary. Was nearly voted in my league a couple of years back but lost by one vote. Have played under cloack at interleague though.
Inter league games are usually attacking affairs by all accounts. A good job they are too with there being 18 games to play.
When they get get tactical though you do need to know what to do. It might be a steep learning curve to jump straight to that standard. But just dish the balls up and you'll be fine.

I personally don't have a problem with the deliberate foul. The best thing about World rules is the hitting the cushion rule. If you go back to BAPTO or old EPA it seems so slow when people can just tap up to balls for easy snookers. That's probably why they put it into Blackball too.
Don't pot unless you can clear is not a bad idea but is more relevant at old EPA and BAPTO than World rules IMO.

Totally agree about the hitting cushion after contact rule, you now have to show extra skill in laying a snooker if required. I love doing that off two cushions after contact!

Luckily in our normal league games we have quite a few "tactical" players that love using the delibrate foul to stick-up, so we have had quite a bit of exposure to the tactic. I am working my way through these on a case-by-case basis.

I still have not been able to get a firm ruling on the Snooker definition, maybe you can clarify. The rules state that if you cannot see "both" sides of the object ball, you are snookered, even if you can play it full-ball. But then in the league matches our captain was informed that if you can see just 1/8th or 1/4 ball you are NOT snooker. Obviously this comes into importance with the Total Snooker and more importantly the Foul Snooker.

Maybe after Sunday interleague I will have a better understanding on its application.

All the best
DeanH

[Watford]

Well I'll explain the two rules as I see them. I think a total snooker is what we think of a snooker being and a foul snooker is a special case.

A 'total snooker' is where you can't hit any part of any of your balls; so you don't need to hit a cush after contact. That's easy enough.

A 'foul snooker' is similar to a free ball in Snooker. If your opponant fouls you have to be able to hit the finest edge of both sides of a ball. If you can't it's a 'foul snooker' and you pick it up or nominate an opponats ball.
Look out for if you pick it up and you can't place the ball behind the line and hit the finest edge of both sides of a ball. This is a 'foul snooker' again so you can place the ball behind the line then nomiate an oponants ball. I've seen loads of people miss this.

People seem to struggle with the idea that you can't be foul snookered with your own ball. If your opponant fouls and leaves you touching your own ball you are not foul snookered. Loads of people questioned this when I first started playing. This is a cracking deliberate foul by the way.

[james250t]

If your playing interleague dont forget to be very vocal about all the situations e.g
After the break and you have potted one you must "nominate", if you are in a situation where you are "total snookered" you must call "total snooker" and get the ref to confirm or it will be a foul! If you are going to roll up to a ball that is a few mm off the cusion to get a snooker get the ref to confirm the ball is infact not touching the cushion because if he thinks it is and you roll up to it just pushing up to the cushion so it's touching it he will probably call a foul if it looked like it was touching the cushion! Same applies if you are foul snookered you must ask the ref before picking the ball up! I allways ask the ref and then ask for the cue ball as well just to be sure!
Hope this helps a little bit!
Interleaugue I would imagine there will be the 1 min rule but they will call 30 seconds first so you do get a warning!

[Mick Dundee]

We play blackball in one league and world rules in another
on balance I have to say I think the blackball rules are better
the skillshot allows attacking play in some situations that is not
available when playing world rules.
Not being forced into playing at your own set of balls when
snookered just punishes good attacking safety players,having
to hit a cushion after contacting the object ball stops most
players from being too negative so getting a decent snooker
becomes a skill in itself,one that is not necessarily rewarded
when playing world rules.