Which Rules?

[TheRowdyOne]

Here's a technicality i'd like someone to answer.

A 'foul snooker' is similar to a free ball in Snooker. If your opponant fouls you have to be able to hit the finest edge of both sides of a ball. If you can't it's a 'foul snooker' and you pick it up or nominate an opponats ball.
Look out for if you pick it up and you can't place the ball behind the line and hit the finest edge of both sides of a ball. This is a 'foul snooker' again so you can place the ball behind the line then nomiate an oponants ball. I've seen loads of people miss this.

You have to ask the Ref for Ball in hand, if you just pick the ball up yourself it's a foul. Everyone agrees with this????

After you get ball in hand an go back to the baulk you can call foul snooker again if you're foul snookered still, right? (after you put the ball on the table)

After the Ref grants a foul snooker, and the player picks up the ball again to move it around the baulk, would you say this is a foul, because as soon as he placed the ball on the table, asked for a foul snooker and it was granted, he was obliged to ask for ball in hand again in order to pick up the ball.

Even still after the second foul snooker, the player nominates an opponents ball, and after ref says (Ball Selected) Nominated, it should be a foul if the player picks the ball up again to move it around the balk, same as above. Once the ref grant's a foul snooker the second time if the player want's to move the ball within the baulk i think they should have to ask for ball in hand again, and they can't ask for ball in hand if they have nominated an opponents ball because they can only choose one or the other.

Anyone agree with me?

[Souwester]

Here's a technicality i'd like someone to answer.

You have to ask the Ref for Ball in hand, if you just pick the ball up yourself it's a foul. Everyone agrees with this????

After you get ball in hand an go back to the baulk you can call foul snooker again if you're foul snookered still, right? (after you put the ball on the table)

After the Ref grants a foul snooker, and the player picks up the ball again to move it around the baulk, would you say this is a foul, because as soon as he placed the ball on the table, asked for a foul snooker and it was granted, he was obliged to ask for ball in hand again in order to pick up the ball.

Even still after the second foul snooker, the player nominates an opponents ball, and after ref says (Ball Selected) Nominated, it should be a foul if the player picks the ball up again to move it around the balk, same as above. Once the ref grant's a foul snooker the second time if the player want's to move the ball within the baulk i think they should have to ask for ball in hand again, and they can't ask for ball in hand if they have nominated an opponents ball because they can only choose one or the other.

Anyone agree with me?

I'm no expert in World Rules, but my understanding is that if a foul snooker exists when you come to the table and you choose to play from baulk, you MAY still have a foul snooker position, in which case you still have the option of playing the 8-ball or your opponents colour. If a foul snooker doesn't exist from in baulk, then the normal rules apply for playing from baulk.

Once the cue ball has been placed in baulk after the first call of Foul Snooker, then it effectively remains 'in hand' (snooker parlance) until it is played from baulk. If a 'foul snooker' position still exists that doesn't change the fact that the cue ball is free to be played from anywhere in baulk, and I don't see how you can call a foul if the player decides to move it.

E. Playing from Baulk

1. Baulk is the rectangular area of the table that is bordered by the Baulk Line and the three cushions at that end of the table.
2. When playing from Baulk:-
a. The centre point of the Cue Ball must be in Baulk when a shot is played. (If the centre point of the Cue Ball is directly on the Baulk Line it is not deemed to be in Baulk.)
b. The Cue Ball can be moved into position by hand or with the shaft of the cue, but when touched by the tip of the cue, a shot is deemed to have been played.
c. The Cue Ball may be played in any direction.
d. If a player wishes to play from Baulk after a “Foul Snooker”, “Foul Jaw Snooker” or "Time Foul":- The player must verbally advise the referee of this choice and the referee will then recover the Cue Ball and hand it to the player or place it on top of, and in the centre of, the cushion at the Baulk end of the table for the player to retrieve by hand.
e. After an "In Off", “Foul Snooker”, “Foul Jaw Snooker” or "Time Foul" the player must endeavour to position the Cue Ball so as not to create a Foul Snooker. If the player claims a Foul Snooker from Baulk, the referee may choose to move the Cue Ball around to determine if there is any position in Baulk where the player would not be Foul Snookered. Whether such a position is found or not, the referee will announce the result and hand the Cue Ball back to the player or place it on top of, and in the centre of, the cushion at the Baulk end of the table for the player to retrieve by hand.

Q. Foul Snookers

1. Definition: When an opponent plays a foul shot and this results in the incoming player being snookered, the incoming player is deemed to be Foul Snookered.
2. If a player believes that a Foul Snooker exists, the player may ask the referee for a ruling.
3. If the referee rules that a foul snooker exists, the player initially has the following options:-
a. Play the Cue Ball from where it lies. {see (4) (a) below} OR
b. Ask the referee to remove the Cue Ball so as to allow the player to play from Baulk. {see (4) (b) below}
4.
a.
i. If the player chooses to play the Cue Ball from where it lies, the player may, if the player wishes, nominate the Eight Ball (but see (5) below) or any one of the opponent's Colour. The player can nominate a particular ball by verbal description of it or its position or by pointing at it. The Referee may ask for further information if any doubt exists as to which ball has been nominated.
ii. Once nominated, a ball is deemed to "become one" of the player's Colour for the first shot of the first visit. The player may then play any of the player's own Colour or the nominated ball. If any of the player's Colour and/or the nominated ball is potted, the player continues with the first visit.
b. If the player chooses to play the Cue Ball from Baulk, a Foul Snooker may no longer exist. In this case the procedure under the heading (E) Playing from Baulk (2) (d) & (2) (e) should be followed. If the referee decides that a Foul Snooker does still exist, the player may nominate a ball and follow the procedure in (4) (a) above.
5. If the Eight Ball is nominated it may be played, but potting it will mean loss of frame.
6.
a. If a player is "On" the Eight Ball and Foul Snookered: - The player may play a nominated ball or the Eight Ball and pot either or both of these balls, directly or indirectly, in any pocket or pockets. Assuming the player does not commit a foul:-
i. If neither the Eight Ball nor the nominated ball is potted, the player's first visit is complete.
ii. If the nominated ball is potted and the Eight Ball is not, the player continues with the first visit.
iii. If the nominated ball and the Eight Ball are potted, the player wins the frame.
iv. If the Eight Ball is potted and the nominated ball is not, the player wins the frame.
7. If a Foul Snooker exists and the Cue Ball is touching an opponent's ball or balls, the player may, but is not obliged to, nominate one of those touching balls.

[TheRowdyOne]

I understand the concept of foul snookers 100%. The question was in regards to if someone could be fouled for not asking for ball in hand after being granted a foul snooker for the second time, or after nominating an oponents ball, even if they had ball in hand before they asked for the second foul snooker. Confused?

[Souwester]

I understand the concept of foul snookers 100%. The question was in regards to if someone could be fouled for not asking for ball in hand after being granted a foul snooker for the second time, or after nominating an oponents ball, even if they had ball in hand before they asked for the second foul snooker. Confused?

I tried to explain, though, that once the first foul snooker has been called and the cue ball moved to baulk, it remains 'in hand' until the next shot has been played, irrespective of whether a foul snooker position still remains.

If a claim for a second foul snooker is made, the referee is free to move the cue ball to check the position, so the cue ball has got to be deemed to be in hand at that point.

Rule E2e quoted above states that if the referee moves the ball to check for a foul snooker, it should then be replaced to the top of the cushion. I have no experience of higher level pool, but I would have thought that it was probably good practice to do that to indicate that the ball was in hand. If there's an obvious foul snooker position still existing, such that the referee doesn't need to move the cue ball, I don't see that it negates the in-hand position, and no foul can be called.

[TheRowdyOne]

2. If a player believes that a Foul Snooker exists, the player may ask the referee for a ruling.
3. If the referee rules that a foul snooker exists, the player initially has the following options:-
a. Play the Cue Ball from where it lies. {see (4) (a) below} OR
b. Ask the referee to remove the Cue Ball so as to allow the player to play from Baulk. {see (4) (b) below}
[/B]

I would argue that the Referee can not make the decision on the second foul snooker unless the player has placed the ball on the table. Then the player asks for a foul snooker

2. If a player believes that a Foul Snooker exists, the player may ask the referee for a ruling.

The Ref has the right to move the white ball around the baulk to find a position in which the player would not be foul snookered and then place the ball on the top cushion , but i would think that if the ref does grant the second foul snooker and the player picks the ball up.

3. If the referee rules that a foul snooker exists, the player initially has the following options:-
a. Play the Cue Ball from where it lies. {see (4) (a) below} OR
b. Ask the referee to remove the Cue Ball so as to allow the player to play from Baulk. {see (4) (b) below}

Why is it that if the foul snooker has been granted the player is allowed to pick up the ball without asking for ball in hand?

e. After an "In Off", “Foul Snooker”, “Foul Jaw Snooker” or "Time Foul" the player must endeavour to position the Cue Ball so as not to create a Foul Snooker. If the player claims a Foul Snooker from Baulk, the referee may choose to move the Cue Ball around to determine if there is any position in Baulk where the player would not be Foul Snookered. Whether such a position is found or not, the referee will announce the result and hand the Cue Ball back to the player or place it on top of, and in the centre of, the cushion at the Baulk end of the table for the player to retrieve by hand.

In this case the Ref has picked the ball up and handed it to the player. If the player picked the ball up it should be a foul because they didn't ask for ball in hand before picking it up.

[Souwester]

If the player picked the ball up it should be a foul because they didn't ask for ball in hand before picking it up.

They didn't ask, because it was already in hand. No shot has been played since it was originally requested to be played from baulk, and, in my interpretation of the rules, remains in hand until the next shot is played. Any second discussion about a foul snooker, is just a distraction: the cue ball remains in hand throughout, until the next shot is played.

[Watford]

Sorry I've not read all this it's hurtin my head.

Foul snooker you have ball in hand.
If no matter where you but ball in baulk you are foul snookered then you can ask again and pot an opponents ball or whatever. If you can place the ball in a place in baulk and not leave a foul snooker than you can't ask for one again. Even if you choose to place the ball where it would be a foul snooker.

I've been fouled for picking up the white myself after asking for a FS. That was funny it was my own teams ref the other player didn't understand what was going on.

[Souwester]

To add to my previous post.

When the first foul snooker is awarded, the player has the additional choices (ie in addition to play from where the balls lie) of either playing his opponents ball or 8-ball, or playing from baulk.

Normally once you've exercised your option to play from baulk you have to play your own colour, so the only purpose of awarding the second foul snooker is to give the player the additional option of playing his opponent's colour/8-ball, since he's already elected to play from baulk after the first call.

[BoBnoGG!n]

souwester is correct. the second foul snooker after taking ball in hand, and playing from baulk, would leave you the option of potting your oponents ball and having 2 shots still, or hitting your opponents or the black ball without fouling, but losing 1 of the 2 shots.

and the reason the balls are arranged the way they are is because if u remove the middle top and middle bottom ball in the rack, both sides are identical. the old way of racking the balls proved that the ball spread isnt fair regarding color balance on either side.

[TheRowdyOne]

I think what i was trying to argue has been lost in the rules. Im not trying to argue what options you have after the first or second foul snooker. I do now understand the answer to my technicality though. Although there is still a grey area. Thanks.