Following "Foul Break" Pool question

[cyprus-dodger]

"Following a "Foul Break" the opponent is given 2 Visits and the Balls are re-racked, ongoing player breaks and pots a colour ball. The question is after the player nominates his group (ie reds) does the player still have 2 visits?"

dodger

[grimreaper]

The short answer is yes:snooker:

[Souwester]

I suppose it depends on what rules you play!

World Rules will give you two visits regardless of whether a ball is potted at the first visit. World Rules are appallingly badly drafted, but here's what they say.

F. The Break

1. The Object Balls are racked with the Eight-Ball on the Spot.
2. In the absence of any competition / tournament rules to the contrary, a coin will be tossed to determine which player will break. If a series of frames is to be played (A Match), the break of each subsequent frame will alternate.
3. The first shot of a frame is called the "Break". To "Break", the Cue Ball is played at the triangle of Object Balls from Baulk. The frame is deemed to have commenced the instant that the Cue Ball is played
4.
a. The Break will be deemed a "Fair Break" if:-
i. At least one Colour is potted. AND/OR
ii. Four Object Balls (at least) are driven to a cushion.
b. If the Break is not a Fair Break it is a Non-Standard Foul and:-
i. The opponent is awarded two visits.
ii. The balls are re-racked.
iii. The opponent re-starts the game and is under the same obligation to achieve a Fair Break.
c.
i. If the Cue Ball is potted on a Fair Break it is a Non-Standard Foul that is penalised by the turn passing to the opponent.
ii. If the break is not a Fair Break and the Cue Ball is potted, the penalty for failure to perform a Fair Break applies. (See (b) above).
5. If the Eight-Ball is potted on any break, the balls are re-racked and the same player will break again. When the Eight-Ball is potted on the break, all other aspects of the shot are ignored. (Except if a Serious Foul or breech of the "Spirit of the Game occurs)

[cyprus-dodger]

The short answer is yes:snooker:

That was my interpretation of the ruling 2 visits will carry following a ball potted from the break after a "Foul Break" by opponent.

dodger

[cyprus-dodger]

Thanks Souwester - you are correct the World Rules are appallingly badly drafted that's the reason I asked the question because "logically" the 2 visits should carry as you have potted with 2 visits but the rule is not defined specifically.

So it's 2 visits carried after ball is potted on re-racked break following foul break by opponent.

dodger

[DeanH]

Please note the 4(c)(i), if the white is potted on the break, there is only "one shot" not two.
Many of our opponents in the league forget this defintion

[LittleMissAlexa]

due to the financial implications the pot the black get a re rack rule is unusable in pub pool so that rule does differ in most pubs some pubs actually have it as an automatic win which is a kinda morf with 6 ball and 9 ball pool

[LittleMissAlexa]

the pubs that play the non carry rule make it no advantage to pot on your first shot hense why i always play 2 shots carry

[perpetualboredom]

due to the financial implications the pot the black get a re rack rule is unusable in pub pool so that rule does differ in most pubs some pubs actually have it as an automatic win which is a kinda morf with 6 ball and 9 ball pool

I've never seen it be anything other than re-racked in any pub I've played in. It's only 50p or £1 not gonna break the bank and it doesn't happen all that often.

Maybe that rule applies in those pubs which make up their own rules.. aka any pub north of the border in my experience! (only kidding.. partly).

[Souwester]

Certainly under pub variations of 'old rules', even down south, it was common that potting the black off the break was a loss of frame. Not sure what the official 'old rules' were though.

[appletango2]

An interesting aside to the above:
If a foul break has been awarded, and then the cue ball is potted, the opponent gets two visits (only the 'first break' gets the concession of one visit from potting the white on a break)

Quite a few people don't know this rule!

[DeanH]

An interesting aside to the above:
If a foul break has been awarded, and then the cue ball is potted, the opponent gets two visits (only the 'first break' gets the concession of one visit from potting the white on a break)

Quite a few people don't know this rule!

Hi appletango2, sorry but I do not think this is correct, the definition is whether the break is Fair or not that defines the number of visits. See 4(c) as per the rules in post #3.

Just to clarify, by your description, a foul break is awarded - that being a Fair Break then only One Visit, yes, and there is NO rerack and your Player 2 "then" pots the cue ball, standard foul, two visits, nothing to do this a break as there was no rerack.
If the foul break being awarded is because of a non-Fair Break, then rerack and two visits, as per 4(b). Your Player two has the new break and must achieve a fair break.

Every break is deemed to be the "first break" and must achieve a Fair Break, and 4(b) and 4(c) apply appropriately.

Make sense ?

DeanH

[appletango2]

Hi appletango2, sorry but I do not think this is correct, the definition is whether the break is Fair or not that defines the number of visits. See 4(c) as per the rules in post #3.

Just to clarify, by your description, a foul break is awarded - that being a Fair Break then only One Visit, yes, and there is NO rerack and your Player 2 "then" pots the cue ball, standard foul, two visits, nothing to do this a break as there was no rerack.
If the foul break being awarded is because of a non-Fair Break, then rerack and two visits, as per 4(b). Your Player two has the new break and must achieve a fair break.

Every break is deemed to be the "first break" and must achieve a Fair Break, and 4(b) and 4(c) apply appropriately.

Make sense ?

DeanH

Just to clarify, after a foul break, and then balls re-racked and then the opponent breaks.
If the break is fair, and then goes in-off, the opponent get two visits not one.
(Rather than going in-off on a 'first' fair break giving only one visit.

[DeanH]

Just to clarify, after a foul break, and then balls re-racked and then the opponent breaks.
If the break is fair, and then goes in-off, the opponent get two visits not one.
(Rather than going in-off on a 'first' fair break giving only one visit.

Sorry, but no.

Fair Break and Cue Ball potted = One visit (no rerack) = Rule F(4)(c)(i)
Non-Fair Break and Cue Ball potted = rerack = two visits = Rule F(4)(c)(ii) - this rule is regardless of whether the cue ball is potted or not, the Non-Fair Break is the important bit, I think that 4(c)(ii) is in the rules just to clearly distinguish that if the cue ball if potted on a Non-Fair Break it is different from the "one visit" foul in 4(c)(i)

(Rather than going in-off on a 'first' fair break giving only one visit.

There is no such stimpulation concerning whether the break is first or second or any number, the player breaking - regardless of whether it is the "first" break or after any number of foul break - must achieve a fair break Rule F4(b)(iii), if not achieved then just follow the rules as applicable.

Clear as mud

DeanH

[cyprus-dodger]

What are the most contested World Pool Rules?

I think this will be a interested thread something to get your teeth into.

In my opinion "World Pool Rules" can be somewhat confusing at times, and players and referees often misinterpret these rules which cause many disputes during matches/competitions, I've even witnessed players / referees rolling around in the Car Park over a dispute.

I already started a thread "Following Foul Break Rule" which was covered well by members and showed how many different interpretation of that rule were covered.

Here is one rule that often causes disputes: Following a "Foul Snooker" does the on-coming player with two visits have to be able to hit both sides of his ball as thinly as possible before deciding his other options ie Free Ball or a Lift?

What's your experiences?

dodger