Different rules for different rules of UK 8-Ball

[tommydale]

Another post from me!

I know of 4 playing rules so far, 2 of which I am very familiar with; World Rules both 'new' and old. However there are a lot of players who refer to different rules; EPA, BAPTO, Fed rules and World rules.

There are a few:

• EPA (World Rules?)
  I know how to rack these - I refer to the run of 5 yellows (assuming there's a red first) as a Nike tick
• Old EPA (Old World Rules?)
  Instead of 5 yellows, there are 4 in the shape of a C towards the right corner.
• BAPTO (Federation Rules?)
  Same as Old EPA?
• Blackball
  Don't have a clue!
• American
  Don't have a clue!

I would be very grateful if some people could set me straight on the racks for each game - I should know them really! Google doesn't help either, plus I'm more likely to trust something coming from someone specifically on a cuesport forum

There are also a lot of variations on the following:

• Cushions
  I know that New EPA use cushion rules, however I'm not sure if other rules do and Google isn't any help or too reliable >:/
• Deliberate fouls
  In Old EPA 2 deliberate fouls meant the player lost the frame, however in New EPA deliberate fouls are actually a common tactic in certain situations. What are the standing on these in other rules?
• Freeball
  In New EPA there is only a freeball following a total snooker. However, in Old EPA freeball was allowed in any situation. What are the limitations on the other rules?
• 2 visits 'carry'
  In New EPA, when you get 2 visits you have another one after your first miss; i.e. you pot 3 and miss one, your second visit comes into play. However in Old EPA, if you pot your first shot your other visit 'expires' (for lack of a better word!). Could this be clarified for the other rules please?

Thank you all, I've noticed the people on this forum are absolutely fantastic. You are all lovely!

P.S. Please don't ignore my signature

[Dave Walton]

For the racking world and blackball are racked the same, bapto is racked the same as old EPA rules

[Dave Walton]

The cushion rule applies in blackball but not bapto or old EPA. World rules are the only ruleset that allow a deliberate foul, in old EPA, blackball and bapto deliberate fouls are loss of frame offences

[Dave Walton]

Old EPA, Blackball and BAPTO all allow you free ball when you have 2 visits, old EPA, you do have 2 visits carry the same as world rules. in Blackball 2 visits do not carry, you have a free shot with your first visit and then a visit, unlike where you could pot then miss and still have a visit In world rules, if you pot on your first visit that's your free visit gone.

Another variation is that with bapto and blackball combination/skill shots are allowed, along as you hit your own colour first and pot your own colour, in the same shot you can legally pot your opponents ball, skill shot is a variation of the combination where you hit your ball as a plant onto your opponents ball potting his and following your own ball into the pocket after theirs, needs to pretty much be a straight plant for it to work. Hope that helps mate :-)

[tommydale]

Summary

You are amazing! :'). Thank you so much for this!

I have taken all of that into consideration and have come up with the following rules:

• New EPA / World
  The Rack: 'Nike Tick'
  Cushion: Yes
  Deliberate fouls: Allowed, standard foul
  2 visit carry: Yes
  Total snooker calls: Yes
  Combination / skill shot: No
  Freeball: Only available after total foul snooker
  Jump shots: Not allowed; 2x is loss of frame
• Old EPA / World
  The Rack: 'C'
  Cushion: No
  Deliberate fouls: Loss of frame
  2 visit carry: ?????
  Total snooker calls: No
  Combination / skill shot: No
  Freeball: On first shot following 2 visit foul only
  Jump shots: ?????
• BAPTO (Federation)
  The Rack: 'C'
  Cushion: No
  Deliberate fouls: Loss of frame
  2 visit carry: ?????
  Total snooker calls: ?????
  Combination / skill shot: ?????
  Freeball: ?????
  Jump shots: ?????
• Blackball
  The Rack: 'Nike Tick'
  Cushion: Yes
  Deliberate fouls: Loss of frame
  2 visit carry: No
  Total snooker calls: ?????
  Combination / skill shot: Yes
  Freeball: ?????
  Jump shots: ?????

If you know the bits that should replace the bold question marks I'd love to know!

Thank you for your help so far, though, it's invaluable!

[Dave Walton]

Old EPA 2 visits carry = yes.
Jump shots = no.

Bapto 2 visits carry = yes.
Total snooker call = I don't think so.
Combination/skill shot = yes.
Freeball = yes.
Jump shot = no.

Blackball Total snooker = yes.
Freeball = yes.
Jump shots = no.

[grimreaper]

Be careful in trying to learn all the different rules as could end confusing yourself.

[tommydale]

Thank you, Dave, you are a lovely man!

Indeed, I am slightly confused :'). However, there seem to be similarities between the racks and the rules, although they are obviously not duplicates. I'm interested in taking a D-Grade Referee exam and, according to some, must be competent in various rules.

[Dave Walton]

No problem mate, good luck if you go for the ref exam

[tommydale]

Thank you, fella, you'll be the first to know the result

[DandyA]

I'm interested in taking a D-Grade Referee exam and, according to some, must be competent in various rules.

tommy, I admire your enthusiasm and wish you the very best for your referee exams ... here's a few questions to toughen you up on "old EPA" rules ...

(1) player A breaks and pots the black ... what is your ruling ...

(2) player A breaks, pots the black and other balls ... what is your ruling ...

(3) player A breaks, pots one or more of each colour (but not the black) ... what do you say to them ...

(4) player A has fouled so player B has two visits and an open table with a freeball allowed on his first shot ... player B is on the black and plants one of player A's balls onto the black (or vice versa) - both the black and his opponent's ball are pocketed ... what is your ruling ...

(5) during the course of the game, a player legally hits one of his object balls but that (or other ball(s)) leave the table and end up on the floor ... what do you say and do ...

I appreciate many experienced players will know the answers (although I only learned the correct answer to (5) recently) but I suggest we let tommy have a go before we all reply ...

these questions may be a bit advanced for grade D exams (I have no idea) but you need to aim high tommy

"old EPA" rules can be found here if you want to have a read ...
http://www.epa.org.uk/rules.php

[old school]

There were regional variations as well . When I first started playing pool properly ( 32 yrs ago and still trying ) we played " old rules " . With regard to " free ball " situation , at first there was NO free ball on a snooker ( you had to try to get out of it and the ref had to see you were trying , similar to what led to " miss " rule in snooker , i.e. you HAD to try to escape and be seen to be doing so OR return of foul to opponent ), only on a foul i.e. ball leaves table or cue ball potted was a foul two shots carry called , with the option of potting or using an opponents ball e.g. for a plant to pot your own. Then later they introduced a " free ball " situation in that on a snooker you had the option of playing your opponents ball ( even potting it , as close to DF as allowed at the time ), foul two shots carry OR picking the white up and placing it in the " D " , foul ,two shots carry ( yes a " D ") not a baulk line.Obviously playing from a " D " narrowed your playing angles and so it was advisable to check the table before moving the white .Then baulk line was introduced and players could place anywhere behind baulk line , made it a lot easier. Why not ask our Scottish members on their thoughts ? I remember playing " last bag black " many times when playing in the Borders area of Scotland , the black has to be potted in the bag your last ball was potted in , certainly makes you think about positional play. I have played most sets of rules and at the moment play World Rules , although I would love to see " skill / combination " shots introduced to these rules as I think they would add to the tactical side of the game and because its different and adds something to the game.

[tommydale]

YAY, this is what I'm after . Righto, here we go :')

1. That player wins
2. That player loses
3. Think I'd wait for him to pick? :')
4. Player B wins (the dude on the black wins, not sure if I followed A and B properly there!) because this is a legal combination shot (I think) :')
5. Foul, 2 visits (opponent's colour) and spot the colour that left the table, unless it was the white in which case ball in hand would be called too

I answered these before looking at the link, and they sound too much like New EPA to be Old Rules :/. Never before have I seen reracks when the black goes down on the break or nominating a colour if a colour goes down on the break!? D: - I only learnt 'New Rules' about 4 or 5 years ago and it was the first time I'd ever seen nominating, unless both colours are down :/

If someone is confident enough on New EPA I'd be so happy to answer some of those questions too . I'm shocking at Blackball and BAPTO at the moment, though; haven't studied them as hard :')

[DandyA]

I think I got the link to the "old EPA rules" correct ... it should say "Old EPA Playing Rules" at the top together with a note that the EPA now plays World Rules ...

http://www.epa.org.uk/rules.php

But the "old EPA" rules are still widely used in pub leagues and similar ...

Anyway here's what I think are the correct answers ...

(1) player A breaks and pots the black ... what is your ruling ...

rule 4D ... If the 8 ball (black) is pocketed from the break shot, the balls will be re-racked and the game will be restarted by the same player. No penalty will be incurred. This applies even if other balls, including the cue ball, are pocketed, or leave the playing surface ("off the table").

(2) player A breaks, pots the black and other balls ... what is your ruling ...

same as question (1)

(3) player A breaks, pots one or more of each colour (but not the black) ... what do you say to them ...

rule 4E ... On the first occasion a player legally pockets an object ball, including following a foul, then that ball denotes their group, unless one or more of both groups are pocketed, the player MUST then nominate a group before play continues.

DandyA comment ... so as a ref, I'd say something like "ball(s) of both colours potted, please nominate which colour you wish to play" ...

(4) player A has fouled so player B has two visits and an open table with a freeball allowed on his first shot ... player B is on the black and plants one of player A's balls onto the black (or vice versa) - both the black and his opponent's ball are pocketed ... what is your ruling ...

rule 7C ... A player pocketing the 8 ball (black) and any other ball on the same shot will lose the game. Except following a foul when only the 8 ball (black) and ball(s) of the opponents group are on the table, then with the first shoy of the first visit, the player may legally pocket the 8 ball (black) as well as ball(s) of the opponent's group by any combination and in any order.

DandyA comment ... so it's a fair shot and player B wins the frame ...

(5) during the course of the game, a player legally hits one of his object balls but that (or other ball(s)) leave the table and end up on the floor ... what do you say and do ...

rule 5G ... Ball off the table.

Any object ball or the 8 ball (black), shall be returned to the 8 ball spot (see rule 4(A)), or as near as possible to that spot without touching any other ball, in direct line between that spot and the centre of the string line.

If the cue ball, then the cue ball played from in hand (see rule 8(B) general).

[DandyA]

tommy, so just playing teacher, I've marked your homework below remember, we're talking "old EPA" rules, the answers may well be different in other rules ...

1. That player wins... nope, the frame is restarted without penalty
   
2. That player loses... nope, the frame is restarted without penalty
   
3. Think I'd wait for him to pick? :')... yes although as a ref I think you should say something like "ball(s) of both colours potted so please nominate your colour" ... also note that once he's nominated, he is that colour whether he makes a pot on his next stroke or doesn't
   
4. Player B wins (the dude on the black wins, not sure if I followed A and B properly there!) because this is a legal combination shot (I think) :')... correct, well done
   
5. Foul, 2 visits (opponent's colour) and spot the colour that left the table, unless it was the white in which case ball in hand would be called too... correct, well done although more detail on how to spot the ball(s) would be good