A rules question for any rules experts!

[timcunnell]

Hi guys
I have a rules quesiton for anyone who knows their stuff! This one has been bugging me, because in recent months I have seen the rule interpreted in different ways in the local league I play in. The World rules aren't written very clearly in my opinion, so its defintely tricky to figure out a ruling sometimes!
The question is this : in a foul-break situation (let's say 4 balls have not hit a cushion) the oponent of the original breaker is awared two shots and the balls are-racked. When the oponent then breaks off - and assuming a legal break occurs - if no balls are potted from the break, does the player lose a visit, and therefore have one visit remaining? Or, if nothing is potted, do the two-visits then commence from there?
As I say, in recent months I have seen both outcomes. Nobody I've spoken to seems to be completely sure!

[SnkrRef]

As I understand it, a dry break is one of his visits, so only one more to carry forward.

[SnkrRef]

The non-offender comes to the table with two visits. A 'visit' is defined in the rules at C5: A "Visit" comprises one shot or a series of shots. Each visit lasts until the player fails to pot a ball "On". (Or until a foul is committed or the frame ends). Seeing as the break-off shot is defined as a 'shot' at C1, then that is the first of his two visits, so he only has one more if he fails to pot off the break.

[timcunnell]

That's great - very informative answer! Thanks for responding

[SnkrRef]

You're welcome.

People complain about the poorly worded rules of snooker and billiards: in contrast pool's World Rules really are truly awfully badly drafted. In some cases you need to read later subsections first to make sense of earlier ones!

[tommydale]

For what it's worth I agree with the outcome of this threat!

Now I don't want to hijack this thread, but I don't want to create a new thread either - not sure what to do entirely, but I also have a question about the break.

I understand that if the white comes off the table on the break shot, the opponent is awarded 2 visits. However, in the unlikely incident that a different ball comes off the table (and doesn't return by its own means blah blah blah), what is the procedure for dealing with this? :/

[SnkrRef]

Any balls knocked off the table are always brought back to the table: cue ball is obviously played from baulk, but object balls are placed on the spot or as near to the spot and the centre of the top cushion (ie the one at the opposite end to baulk), in the following order of precedence: black, then red then yellow. If it/they cannot be spotted between the spot and the cushion, then they will be placed on the centre line of the table the baulk side of the spot.

T. Balls Off the Table
1. It is a Standard Foul if a ball leaves the playing surface (other than being potted) and remains
off the playing surface or doesn't return by its own means.
2. Definitions / Examples
a. "Playing Surface":- The Playing Surface of the table is the flat part of the table between
the cushions
b. "By its own means":-
i. It is not a foul if a ball leaves the playing surface, runs along the top of a cushion,
drops back on to the playing surface and comes to rest there or falls into a
pocket.
ii. It is a Standard Foul if a ball leaves the playing surface, comes into contact with a
person or object that is not a part of the table and then returns to the playing
surface.
c. "Off the Table":- It is a Standard Foul if a ball leaves the playing surface and comes to
rest on other than the playing surface. (e.g. On the floor or on the top of a cushion)
d. "Spotted":- A ball is spotted when its centre point is placed on the spot or, if this is not
possible, as near as possible to the spot in a direct line between the spot and the centre
point of the cushion that lies the greatest distance from the Baulk Line. If this is not
possible, as near as is possible to the spot, in a direct line between the spot and the
centre point of the baulk line. If any of the following balls require spotting, they are
spotted in the following order:-
i. Eight Ball then
ii. Red Balls in any order (or balls numbered 1 to 7 in numerical order) then
iii. Yellow Balls in any order (or balls numbered 9 to 15 in numerical order) Spotted
balls should be placed as close to each other and any intervening balls as
possible, without touching.
3. If a ball leaves the playing surface and remains off the playing surface, it shall be returned to
the table:-
a. If it is the Cue Ball it is to be played from Baulk.
b. If it is an Object Ball (or Balls) it is to be Spotted.

[tommydale]

Ah that is brilliant, we've had numerous arguments about whether or not an object ball would go down the pocket should it come off the table - I'll show my team this post

I assume if an object ball came off the table it would award 2 visits to the oncoming player? Would this still be the case if a ball left the table and didn't return on the break? - The oncoming player directly following the break would have 2 visits, or is there an exception because it happened on the break?

[danam1]

Yes Tommy still 2 visits whether on the break or in open play.
The only difference being if an object ball came off the table and didn't return on its own and it was an illegal break as well it would be a rerack and 2 visits to the other player. But no rerack if it was a legal break with a ball leaving the table. :-0

[billabong]

I always correct it when players set the balls up with ayellow at the tip of the triangle, instead of a red.

People say it doesn't matter, but the precident of a red & a yellow leaving the table means you would need to remember
which way they were set so that the top of the triangle colour went behind the black spot.

It rarely happens, but still matters to pedants like me

Obv in comps, the reds are always set up 1st ball on toip of triangle. . . well most times . .

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[SnkrRef]

People say it doesn't matter, but the precident of a red & a yellow leaving the table means you would need to remember which way they were set so that the top of the triangle colour went behind the black spot.

Indeed this is the only reason I can think to justify having the reds at the apex of the triangle.

I think only once have I seen both a red and yellow leave the table. Most players don't even seem to realise that any balls forced off the table need to be brought back onto the table, let alone where they go!

[tommydale]

Yes Tommy still 2 visits whether on the break or in open play.
The only difference being if an object ball came off the table and didn't return on its own and it was an illegal break as well it would be a rerack and 2 visits to the other player. But no rerack if it was a legal break with a ball leaving the table. :-0

Thank you for your reply . So precedent of most serious break fouls comes in? - If a ball other than the white leaves the table during the break shot, it's only 2 visits, unless it was a foul break as well? Sorry to be a pain, I just want to make sure I get it right :}

[SnkrRef]

Thank you for your reply . So precedent of most serious break fouls comes in? - If a ball other than the white leaves the table during the break shot, it's only 2 visits, unless it was a foul break as well? Sorry to be a pain, I just want to make sure I get it right :}

The rule on breaks (reproduced below) is a bit difficult to understand. Basically a break can be fair or not fair, and standard or non-standard fouls can be committed!

A fair break is when a colour is potted Or at least four object balls (ie reds or yellows, not including the cue ball) hit a cushion.
If the cue ball is potted with an otherwise 'fair' break, then it is simply a case of the turn passing to the opponent with just one visit. If a red/or yellow is forced off the table on a fair break, then it is simply two visits to the opponent. The same is tru of any 'standard foul' on a break.

If the break was not a fair break, because four balls didn't hit a cushion, then this is a non-standard foul, penalised with a re-rack and two visits to the opponent.


F. The Break
1. The Object Balls are racked with the Eight-Ball on the Spot.
2. In the absence of any competition / tournament rules to the contrary, a coin will be tossed to
determine which player will break. If a series of frames is to be played (A Match), the break of
each subsequent frame will alternate.
3. The first shot of a frame is called the "Break". To "Break", the Cue Ball is played at the triangle
of Object Balls from Baulk. The frame is deemed to have commenced the instant that the Cue
Ball is played
4.
a. The Break will be deemed a "Fair Break" if:-
i. At least one Colour is potted. AND/OR
ii. Four Object Balls (at least) are driven to a cushion.
b. If the Break is not a Fair Break it is a Non-Standard Foul and:-
i. The opponent is awarded two visits.
ii. The balls are re-racked.
iii. The opponent re-starts the game and is under the same obligation to achieve a
Fair Break.
c.
i. If the Cue Ball is potted on a Fair Break it is a Non-Standard Foul that is penalised
by the turn passing to the opponent.
ii. If the break is not a Fair Break and the Cue Ball is potted, the penalty for failure
to perform a Fair Break applies. (See (b) above).
5. If the Eight-Ball is potted on any break, the balls are re-racked and the same player will break
again. When the Eight-Ball is potted on the break, all other aspects of the shot are ignored.
(Except if a Serious Foul or breech of the "Spirit of the Game occurs)

[tommydale]

The rule on breaks (reproduced below) is a bit difficult to understand. Basically a break can be fair or not fair, and standard or non-standard fouls can be committed!

A fair break is when a colour is potted Or at least four object balls (ie reds or yellows, not including the cue ball) hit a cushion.
If the cue ball is potted with an otherwise 'fair' break, then it is simply a case of the turn passing to the opponent with just one visit. If a red/or yellow is forced off the table on a fair break, then it is simply two visits to the opponent. The same is tru of any 'standard foul' on a break.

If the break was not a fair break, because four balls didn't hit a cushion, then this is a non-standard foul, penalised with a re-rack and two visits to the opponent.

Thank you for that, that's cleared it up for me . I don't doubt I'll be back with another question before too long, though :')