Potting opponent's balls when foul-snookered...

[timcunnell]

Hi guys. This one has come up a couple of times in my local league and nobody seems to know the answer!! This related to UK 8-ball pool (world rules, I think!?)
What I'd like to ask is this:
Say you've got one yellow ball left, but this yellow is sandwiched between two red balls. One of these reds is hanging in the jaws of a corner pocket, and the other is between your yellow and the cue ball. And your opponent has just fouled. You claim a foul snooker, and the ref confirms it is. No point in moving the white. But - is there any way in which you're allowed to basically play a 3-ball plant to hit the nearest red onto your yellow, which in turn pots the red covering the pocket?
Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks
Tim

[DeanH]

From my understanding of the scenario - no.
Not legally anyway,
As you need to declare your free ball, if you nominate the Red-A (nearest cue ball) you will pot the opponents colour (Red-B over the pocket) - foul.
If you nominate Red-B, you will be hitting the opponents colour first - foul.
So I dont see a legal way of getting the pot and continuing.
interesting

[timcunnell]

Hi Dean - thank you very much for your reply. It is definitely the issue of nominating opponent's balls that I can't get my head round!
So is it the case that when foul-snookered, you can nominate one (only one?) of your opponent's balls. But then this nominated ball is the only one you can hit, AND the only one you're allowed to pot?

[rdsalt]

Yes that's correct, only the ball that you nominate becomes "your" ball, so it is the only ball of your opponent's that you are allowed to hit and the only one you are allowed to pot.

[DeanH]

yep, nominated ball, is the one that you and either hit first, or pot, or both
in the scenario I think I would (if only the two reds and my one yellow) punt the red into the pocket leaving my yellow covering the pocket, he gets two visits but not foul snookered

[timcunnell]

Thanks very much for the input on this! I now understand this rule much clearer son if it comes up again I'll be covered!
We played a match this weekend and the other team were refereeing this frame. Their player nominated one ball but potted the other. Ref didn't call a foul, and their guy cleared. We queried the ruling after and the ref said "oh yeah that probably was a foul. Oh well!"
They were a cheating bunch of scumbags to be honest! But embarrassingly at the time none of us were really sure of the rule ourselves!

[DeanH]

yep sounds like it was OK in that match.
Your nominated free ball in pool does not have to be the first ball hit, it just becomes one of your colours for that shot, to do with as you would with any of your colour.

Unlike snooker where the nominated free ball HAS to be the first ball hit by the cue ball

[timcunnell]

Ah but although it doesn't have to be the first ball you hit, it is the only ball of your opponent's that you can hit first, right?
What I meant was that on the weekend, this guy was yellows, but nominated a red over the pocket, and played a different red onto his yellow, which in turn potted the red he'd nominated. But he hit a red first that wasn't the ball he had nominated. So I guess that must be a foul?

[DeanH]

Ah but although it doesn't have to be the first ball you hit, it is the only ball of your opponent's that you can hit first, right?

correct, if you so wish.

What I meant was that on the weekend, this guy was yellows, but nominated a red over the pocket, and played a different red onto his yellow, which in turn potted the red he'd nominated. But he hit a red first that wasn't the ball he had nominated. So I guess that must be a foul?

that is a foul
only the nominated Red ball (singular) becomes your ball for that shot, which you can hit first or pot it by hitting it with one of your yellows.

[SnkrRef]

Ah but although it doesn't have to be the first ball you hit, it is the only ball of your opponent's that you can hit first, right?
What I meant was that on the weekend, this guy was yellows, but nominated a red over the pocket, and played a different red onto his yellow, which in turn potted the red he'd nominated. But he hit a red first that wasn't the ball he had nominated. So I guess that must be a foul?

Yes, that would have been a foul.

In World Rules you have to nominate a particular ball as your free ball if you have a foul snooker. It isn't just a totally free ball where you can hit any ball and all of your opponent's balls are 'on'. It means that the particular ball you nominate as the free ball effectively just becomes one of your balls for that shot. Therefore, as one of your balls, you can hit it first, last or not at all.

Of course you can also nominate black as a free ball, but you cannot pot it!

[DeanH]

Of course you can also nominate black as a free ball, but you cannot pot it!

good point

Sometime ago a team mate asked if you nominated the black and used the black to pot your last colour, and then the black drops as well, he said it was ok as the last colour was potted before the Black.
I said no, it would be lost of frame, as the black is one of your colours for the whole time of the shot (from strike to all balls at rest), so it is not a "black" when it is pocketed.
do you agree with my thinking here?

[rdsalt]

Agree that would be a foul in WR as it would be classed as potting the black before the end of the frame, of course to confuse matters that would be perfectly OK playing Blackball.

[m@rius]

Interesting thread for a pool player! Tend to agree that only a single ball can be nominated. For potting the black and the last colour - not sure to be honest

[SnkrRef]

Interesting thread for a pool player! Tend to agree that only a single ball can be nominated. For potting the black and the last colour - not sure to be honest

It is a loss of frame foul...

N. Loss of Frame Fouls
1. Committing a foul in the same shot that the Eight Ball is potted. (Except on the Break)
2. Potting the Eight Ball when a ball or balls of the player's own Colour are still on the table.
(Except on the Break)
3. Potting the Eight Ball and the last ball or balls of the player's own Colour in the same shot.
4. Committing two Serious Fouls in the one frame.
5. Committing a Serious Foul that disrupts the balls to such an extent that the Referee deems it
impossible to replace them as close as possible to their original positions.
6. Any deliberate attempt to prevent the opponent from potting the Eight Ball, when the
opponent is on the Eight Ball, by way of a Serious Foul or other unsporting manoeuvre.
7. If a player breeches the "Spirit of the Game" to such an extent that the frame (or match) should
be awarded to the opponent.

[m@rius]

Thanks, that clarifies it then!