World Rules, Serious Foul

[mfcreece]

If a deliberate foul is played in which the shaft of the cue touches the cue ball, it is classed as a serious foul.

If this happens does the other player get ball in hand, or is it just played as a standard foul ie from where the cue ball lies?

[RogiBear]

I could be wrong, but I think it is a serious foul but not loss of frame as something other than the tip of the cue was used to play the shot, therefore a warning should be issued and then played as a standard foul from where the ball lies.

[DeanH]

There is a defintiion of a Serious Foul as "Deliberately striking the Cue Ball with other than the tip of the cue" but the important word here is "deliberate".
was it on the break, i.e. moving the cue ball with the shaft before the strike, or during the play of a turn?

Also, even if it is a Serious Foul the award is Two visits only and plays from where the cue ball lies, not Ball in Hand as standard; Ball in Hand only comes into effect if after the foul the non-offending player is foul-snookered.

[SnkrRef]

I wouldn't class touching the cue ball with the shaft of the cue as actually striking the ball. It is simply touching the cue ball, akin to letting your finger or some clothing touch it. If the cue ball hasn't really moved, I don't see how you can count it as having been struck.

[DandyA]

I wouldn't class touching the cue ball with the shaft of the cue as actually striking the ball. It is simply touching the cue ball, akin to letting your finger or some clothing touch it. If the cue ball hasn't really moved, I don't see how you can count it as having been struck.

I'm not sure about that ... as far as I know, World Rules do not define a difference between "striking" and "touching" so I would infer they are the same thing as far as the rules are concerned ... standard foul 21 says "player body or clothing touching any ball" so that can't apply as it was his cue that touched the cue ball ... so surely the OP's scenario must come under serious foul 4 "deliberately striking the cue ball with other than the tip of the cue"? If it doesn't, then what rule does it breach?

To answer the OP, if it's a serious foul, the referee will replace the balls as best he can to the positions they were in (which might be the same) and then award 2 visits as per standard fouls ...

But this is why I don't like World Rules ... they are so bleeding complicated ... if you don't like the old EPA rules then play Blackball instead - Blackball rules also prevent easy tuckups but are simple to understand and don't have any of the complications of World Rules ...

[Giggity1984]

I've played world rules for a few years now, and having played a few frames with blackball rules the other day, I'm not sure how you can say blackball is easier to undetstand!!! All this nonsense with potting a ball that's not yours so long as you strike your colour first is both confusing and silly in equal measure! Also, I do not like the fact that 2 shots don't carry. World rules seems a lot simpler to me.

[SnkrRef]

I'm not sure about that ... as far as I know, World Rules do not define a difference between "striking" and "touching" so I would infer they are the same thing as far as the rules are concerned ... standard foul 21 says "player body or clothing touching any ball" so that can't apply as it was his cue that touched the cue ball ... so surely the OP's scenario must come under serious foul 4 "deliberately striking the cue ball with other than the tip of the cue"? If it doesn't, then what rule does it breach?

To answer the OP, if it's a serious foul, the referee will replace the balls as best he can to the positions they were in (which might be the same) and then award 2 visits as per standard fouls ...

But this is why I don't like World Rules ... they are so bleeding complicated ... if you don't like the old EPA rules then play Blackball instead - Blackball rules also prevent easy tuckups but are simple to understand and don't have any of the complications of World Rules ...

Hmmm, the only other foul could be K16, failure to perform a 'legal shot'.

The thing to remember with serious fouls is that it is loss of frame if you commit two serious fouls in the same frame.

The 'Guidance to Referees' document doesn't help much either, because it cies the following as examples of 'deliberately striking with other than the tip of the cue':

4. Deliberately striking the cue ball with other than the tip of the cue.
For example using the butt of the cue to play the cue ball.

[RogiBear]

I've played world rules for a few years now, and having played a few frames with blackball rules the other day, I'm not sure how you can say blackball is easier to undetstand!!! All this nonsense with potting a ball that's not yours so long as you strike your colour first is both confusing and silly in equal measure! Also, I do not like the fact that 2 shots don't carry. World rules seems a lot simpler to me.

World rules helps those that can't make clearances often with the two shot carry as well as those more tactically aware. In most cases the one free shot that blackball gives you is enough to move any problem balls.

[tommydale]

I took a referee exam on 1st June and am happy to say I passed. I'm not saying the following is gospel; rather, my interpretation of it as a current EPA World Rules referee.

A previous post suggested the pivotal point in the debate is whether or not the played touched the ball with anything other than the tip of the cue as deliberate. Personally, the first time it happened, if it clearly wasn't deliberate, I would penalise via a standard foul. If it was a case of carelessness (for example, setting up a bridge hand without properly 'wielding' the cue so as to recklessly cause a ball to be contacted by the shaft of the cue) I would suggest to not do it again, and then warn the player that doing it again would result in a serious foul, first warning. Some my call it harsh, but for me a lot of people are good actors and so can claim it wasn't deliberate... Just saying.

It would be punishable by a standard foul procedure; 2 visits, white remains where it is UNLESS the oncoming player is foul snookered. In this case the nomination of a particular ball or ball in hand are acceptable outcomes.

I hope this helps

[DandyA]

I've played world rules for a few years now, and having played a few frames with blackball rules the other day, I'm not sure how you can say blackball is easier to undetstand!!! All this nonsense with potting a ball that's not yours so long as you strike your colour first is both confusing and silly in equal measure! Also, I do not like the fact that 2 shots don't carry. World rules seems a lot simpler to me.

errr ... the highlighted bit is not actually quite correct Giggity - in Blackball rules, as long as you contact one of your balls first and pot one of your balls, then you may also pot your opponent's ball(s) in the same shot ...

each set of rules has to include a way to clear a pocket blocked by your opponent's ball ... in the old EPA rules, it's the easy tuckup and the severe penalty for failing to escape ... in World Rules, it's the deliberate foul ... and in Blackball rules it's being able to pot your opponent's ball as long as you legally pot one of your own balls (the so called "skill shot") ...

I think the Blackball way of doing it is elegant ... I don't mind the old EPA rule as it concentrates the mind - don't give your opponent an easy way to tuck you up and if he/she does, do your best to get out of the snooker which is a skill in itself ... but the World Rules solution is to play a deliberate foul which sometimes results in complete nonsense where each player is trying to pot his/her opponent's balls rather than their own ...

The only saviour of World Rules is that most players don't understand how much you can mess up a game with the deliberate foul so don't use it that often OK, that last sentence is probably a bit over the top but when a World Rules game goes wrong due to deliberate fouls, it often goes *really* wrong ...

[mfcreece]

I play in a league on a Wednesday that uses basically blackball rules except a cushion doesnt need to be hit,

One of the frames lasted well over half an hour due to roll up safetys

[Giggity1984]

errr ... the highlighted bit is not actually quite correct Giggity - in Blackball rules, as long as you contact one of your balls first and pot one of your balls, then you may also pot your opponent's ball(s) in the same shot ...

each set of rules has to include a way to clear a pocket blocked by your opponent's ball ... in the old EPA rules, it's the easy tuckup and the severe penalty for failing to escape ... in World Rules, it's the deliberate foul ... and in Blackball rules it's being able to pot your opponent's ball as long as you legally pot one of your own balls (the so called "skill shot") ...

I think the Blackball way of doing it is elegant ... I don't mind the old EPA rule as it concentrates the mind - don't give your opponent an easy way to tuck you up and if he/she does, do your best to get out of the snooker which is a skill in itself ... but the World Rules solution is to play a deliberate foul which sometimes results in complete nonsense where each player is trying to pot his/her opponent's balls rather than their own ...

The only saviour of World Rules is that most players don't understand how much you can mess up a game with the deliberate foul so don't use it that often OK, that last sentence is probably a bit over the top but when a World Rules game goes wrong due to deliberate fouls, it often goes *really* wrong ...

Very interesting and thank you for the clarification.... Looks like my team mates were lying to me! Lol.

I use deliberate fouls all the time, lol, I doubt you'd enjoy playing me from the sounds of it!