Balls dropping

[justf]

Not me!!!!
In recent league match, playing world rules a team mate played a shot with the aim of covering a pocket.
The table wasn't that level and he played the shot, standing up as the ball was rolling. The ball covered the pocket, appeared to stop for about a second then dropped.
Our captain (who is also a county captain) and the player said ball should be replaced covering the pocket as it had stopped.
I disagreed saying the ball must have had motion, to drop. There was no movements or vibration that I could detect to cause the ball to drop.
Opposition agreed as they had already lost the match and ball was replaced, very harshly i feel.
What is the ruling on such events?
If that had of happened to me I would have been most upset having ball replaced covering a pocket.
Thanks for any input.

[billabong]

Not me!!!!
In recent league match, playing world rules a team mate played a shot with the aim of covering a pocket.
The table wasn't that level and he played the shot, standing up as the ball was rolling. The ball covered the pocket, appeared to stop for about a second then dropped.
Our captain (who is also a county captain) and the player said ball should be replaced covering the pocket as it had stopped.
I disagreed saying the ball must have had motion, to drop. There was no movements or vibration that I could detect to cause the ball to drop.
Opposition agreed as they had already lost the match and ball was replaced, very harshly i feel.
What is the ruling on such events?
If that had of happened to me I would have been most upset having ball replaced covering a pocket.
Thanks for any input.

Not a help for you directly, but I know in Blackball rules, the ball is only replaced if it has been stationary for 5 or more seconds
( although it's not an exact science, as few people accurately time when all the balls stop after the break for example ).
Anything less than that and the ball stays down, and any such penalties / rewards that this brings are reluctantly /gratefully applied.

Maybe there's a similar rule in WR somewhere ?

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[rdsalt]

T. Balls Falling Wit hout Being Hit
1. Any ball that falls into a pocket at any time, without being struck, shall be replaced by the
Referee to its original position, no penalty. Time will be re-started and the player in control
continues with the visit.
2. Should any ball fall into the pocket after a shot is played and before balls come to rest,
providing the fallen ball played no part in the shot, once all other balls have stopped
moving, it shall be replaced as described above.
a) If a legal pot was made play continues with the same visit.
b) If no pot was made play continues with the next visit.
c) If a foul was made then the next player will continue with the appropriate penalty.
3. Should any ball fall into the pocket after a shot is played, but before balls come to rest, and
the fallen ball would have been struck, then the Referee will replace all balls to their
original positions
a) If no infringements of the rules were committed during the shot, or the Cue Ball is
potted as a result of a ball falling that the cue ball would otherwise hit, the player who
played will replay the shot or may play a different shot.
b) If any foul was committed (other than as defined in a) above) then the next player will
continue with the appropriate penalty.

[DeanH]

Not me!!!!
In recent league match, playing world rules a team mate played a shot with the aim of covering a pocket.
The table wasn't that level and he played the shot, standing up as the ball was rolling. The ball covered the pocket, appeared to stop for about a second then dropped.
Our captain (who is also a county captain) and the player said ball should be replaced covering the pocket as it had stopped.
I disagreed saying the ball must have had motion, to drop. There was no movements or vibration that I could detect to cause the ball to drop.
Opposition agreed as they had already lost the match and ball was replaced, very harshly i feel.
What is the ruling on such events?
If that had of happened to me I would have been most upset having ball replaced covering a pocket.
Thanks for any input.

World Rules themselves do not have any such time stated for the "hanging over the pocket and then fall".
Black Ball has the 5 seconds rule stated and snooker has the "momentarily" statement.

From your description and the imagined timing of the shot, I would not have replaced the ball concerned; as it sounds like a normal slow pace ball, appearing to stop and then falling. The repercussions of the fall, whether a legal pot or a foul, is not being discussed here.

Of course if the ball stayed there for longer, and the player had obviously moved away from the table, Turn finished, then yes the ball would be replaced and play continues with no foul/pot, etc.

It is a difficult one to call sometimes, anyone got any helpful tip on such timing (like saying "momentarily" in your head - if it falls after you saying the word, replace )?

[Londonlad147]

Snooker rules contain the following phrase: If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in; it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced. That means it a ball just balances momentarily as part of a shot and then falls, it will be counted as having ended in the pocket, whether that be a pot or a foul. The snooker rules don't define momentarily, but a general rule of thumb is about 4 seconds.

World Rules Guidance to Referees offers this:

The instant that the Referee has determined that a shot is over, time will be started. Any subsequent ball falling, no matter
how close to time starting, will be treated as falling without being hit, and it shall be replaced where it was prior to falling. Only
the fallen ball will be replaced even if other balls were moving. Exception, if it is absolutely clear a moving ball would have
struck the ball that fell, the fallen ball is replaced also all other balls are restored to the positions before the shot was played.
The same player will then play again without penalty. The Player may decide to play a different shot.
If a ball falls in without being hit timing shall be restarted when the ball(s) have been replaced.

So if the ref has deemed the previous shot over and time has started for the incoming player, then it is tough luck if the ball then falls in the pocket.

[grimreaper]

The ball should not have been replaced as you have ten seconds in WR to move away from the table so the player who played the shot was still in control of the table when the ball droped.

[danam1]

The ball should not have been replaced as you have ten seconds in WR to move away from the table so the player who played the shot was still in control of the table when the ball droped.

It's a tough one without TV footage to confirm or deny whether the ball stopped or not. It sounds like it had forward momentum still so should of stayed down.
As for this rule grimreaper has posted he is wrong I'm afraid.

[Londonlad147]

The ball should not have been replaced as you have ten seconds in WR to move away from the table so the player who played the shot was still in control of the table when the ball droped.

That's not quite right. Control of the table ends when all balls have stopped moving. He then has 10 seconds to move away from the table as I understand it.

C9: Player in Control: A player (and the player's partner in doubles) is deemed to be "In Control" of
the frame from the time that the balls stop moving from the final shot of an opponent's turn
until the balls stop moving from the final shot of the player's turn. There can be no instance,
once a frame has commenced, that someone is not in control.

H2: The Referee will start timing when all balls have come to rest from the previous shot.

K10: Touching the table when not in control of the frame. {See (C) Definitions (9) - Player in Control}
Exception: When a players’ turn is finished, that player has a maximum of ten (10) seconds to
move away from the table. {See 11 below}

Sorry, I'm quoting from the old version of the rules, but as far as I am aware these points haven't changed.

[DeanH]

LondonLad; all the above are still the same as per the 2014 revalidation, except H2 is now I2.