Brexit, in or out.

[mikeyd100]

Hilarious, this whole nonsense vote was set up to save Cameron's bacon and save the Tory party from warfare. These towries supposedly hate waste but are quite happy to spend 500 cancer treatments on a pointless vote that will achieve nothing and not heal a single wound in their own party; it certainly won't close the issue, just as the huge waste of money hasn't closed Scots indy. They routinely have huge expenses claims as well, yep, the chancellor himself was caught with his pants down conning the public coffers with non-existent expenses. Quality.

Hard to believe what comes out of Camerons mouth. Did he claim Sadiq Khan was an ISIS sympathiser - then recently glorified him as a great Muslim?

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

There are tricks to that. Jot down each point as it occurs to you, both for and against whatever the subject is, and then review your notes later.

Ultimately, everyone votes with their gut. There's no point over analysing this one, as there will never be the perfect answer.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Hard to believe what comes out of Camerons mouth. Did he claim Sadiq Khan was an ISIS sympathiser - then recently glorified him as a great Muslim?

The 'I'm the son of a stockbroker' line was nauseating.

[itsnoteasy]

It gets my hackles up a bit the not liking foreigners stuff, it normally comes from middle to upper income people who don't have to suffer what mass immigration brings. When you live in a big city and your neighbourhood that you may have lived in for many many years gets utterly transformed in just a few years, and English becomes the least spoken language in your street, your kids are struggling at school because there are thirty different languages spoken in one classroom so all the time is spent helping these children, you can't get a doctor or a dentist because of over crowding, your wages have been cut or you have lost your job, even though you are a skilled tradesman ,because someone will do it for minimum wage, then you turn on your tv to be told mass immigration is good for us and if you don't like what's happened to you its because your a racist,these and many other things are what causes the tensions, it's the feelings of being marginalised in your own country, it's not I hate Johnny foreigners, I don't think anyone is against controlled immigration, (or genuine asylum seekers , I think we should take more considering we go around causing most of the trouble )many many countries do it, they are not labeled racists, what people object to, is uncontrolled mass economic immigration, and you simply can not stop this and be in the EU, the remain camp always come out with we want to stay but in a reformed Europe, yeah well Cameron tried that and got precisely sweet fa , which by the way he promised he would vote to leave if he didn't get his way in the renegotiations, another lie from him but what do you expect, there is no reforming the EU, don't kid yourself ,if you vote to stay we are heading for the United States of Europe, it's a stated aim, the ultimate goal of the Germans and French, it may not be a bad thing, but it will be a thing ,of that there is no doubt.

[mikeyd100]

The 'I'm the son of a stockbroker' line was nauseating.

Indeed it was.

[mikeyd100]

Could there be some merit in the conspiracy theories of a one world government, the new world order as it is called ???

[Leo]

It gets my hackles up a bit the not liking foreigners stuff, it normally comes from middle to upper income people who don't have to suffer what mass immigration brings. When you live in a big city and your neighbourhood that you may have lived in for many many years gets utterly transformed in just a few years, and English becomes the least spoken language in your street, your kids are struggling at school because there are thirty different languages spoken in one classroom so all the time is spent helping these children, you can't get a doctor or a dentist because of over crowding, your wages have been cut or you have lost your job, even though you are a skilled tradesman ,because someone will do it for minimum wage, then you turn on your tv to be told mass immigration is good for us and if you don't like what's happened to you its because your a racist,these and many other things are what causes the tensions, it's the feelings of being marginalised in your own country, it's not I hate Johnny foreigners, I don't think anyone is against controlled immigration, (or genuine asylum seekers , I think we should take more considering we go around causing most of the trouble )many many countries do it, they are not labeled racists, what people object to, is uncontrolled mass economic immigration, and you simply can not stop this and be in the EU, the remain camp always come out with we want to stay but in a reformed Europe, yeah well Cameron tried that and got precisely sweet fa , which by the way he promised he would vote to leave if he didn't get his way in the renegotiations, another lie from him but what do you expect, there is no reforming the EU, don't kid yourself ,if you vote to stay we are heading for the United States of Europe, it's a stated aim, the ultimate goal of the Germans and French, it may not be a bad thing, but it will be a thing ,of that there is no doubt.

That's the unfortunate thing surrounding left wing agenda and their total hate to anyone who express a different opinion to them.
Let's be serious here, if someone does live in a neighbourhood as you mentioned that English is the second language, their children are surrounded by non English speaking children, their local doctors a few year back they'd get an appointment same day, local services stretched to the max, the list goes on, just because they have concerns do anyone have any right whatsoever to label these who are caught up in this bigots, racists, anti foreigner, you hate immigrants, its totally wrong to label these people like that.

Those on the left..immigration is good for the country
Those on the right..immigration is good for the country but think it should be controlled
Those on the left..that's a bit racist
Those on the right.. Why what's that got to do with race
Those on the left.. not sure but you're racist racist anyway

[mikeyd100]

PS vmax, why dont you make an addition to this thread by using the voting buttons thingy - In or Out.

[vmax4steve]

The problems with the UK came from the Thatcher era and the destruction of the true labour party giving us no choice in what to vote for. With Blair all we got was a load of speeches that said nothing followed by right wing policies and an illegal war in the middle east that led to the rise of Islamic State.

Blair also gave us a dumbed down education sysem that sent the just above average intelligence kids to university where they gained meaningless degrees that gave them jobs in call centres. These kids used to be the mainstay of british industry and the NHS, trained in tech colleges and real five year apprenticeships and nursing college. The CBI often cry about the lack of skilled workers and the need for immigration to fill these posts, but what we're seeing is the mass immigration of just above average intelligent eastern europeans into low skilled jobs that should be done by the UK's below average intelligent people who are now stuck on benefits.

Politicians and their need for stats to back up their programmes is what's to blame for this mess, make the tests easier and education looks to be better, give universities money for each student and the tech colleges chase that money and turn themselves into universities offering degrees like golf management rather than train day release apprentices. Nursing is now a univerity course along with the debt that goes with it, better to find a job in a call centre where you're unlikely to earn enough to have the debt docked from your wages.

Immigration is at the point where a city the size of Birmingham is needed every five years, where are these people going to live, look at this picture and tell me this country isn't already overcrowded.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Could there be some merit in the conspiracy theories of a one world government, the new world order as it is called ???

Of course, but i wouldn't call it a conspiracy as such, more a natural progression as capital flows around the world. One world, One government, one culture, one currency, one work force, one ideology.

The ultimate fantasy of the moneyed/political/media and legal classes is to have massive homogenised consumer bases, all competing with each other on work and wages, who'll work til they die, and spend what little free time they have either eating or shopping. Meadowhall and Bake Off.

The larger the consumer base, the better. The larger the workforce, the better. And how do you manage all these people? You make them all the same. The way you do that is through the imposition of ideology; in the current climate, virulent, never ending and self fulfilling political correctness, which we dare not question. Obedience and subservience to state sponsored political correctness is demanded; dissent or even doubt is ruthlessly quashed. Intolerance abounds.

The left think they're creating a socialist utopia, when all they're doing is aiding and abetting capitalist exploitation! Anyone telling you you're a racist for questioning the benefits of mass migration should be viewed with deep suspicion, for many speak from a position of self interest and from both sides of their mouths.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

The problems with the UK came from the Thatcher era and the destruction of the true labour party giving us no choice in what to vote for. With Blair all we got was a load of speeches that said nothing followed by right wing policies and an illegal war in the middle east that led to the rise of Islamic State.

Blair also gave us a dumbed down education sysem that sent the just above average intelligence kids to university where they gained meaningless degrees that gave them jobs in call centres. These kids used to be the mainstay of british industry and the NHS, trained in tech colleges and real five year apprenticeships and nursing college. The CBI often cry about the lack of skilled workers and the need for immigration to fill these posts, but what we're seeing is the mass immigration of just above average intelligent eastern europeans into low skilled jobs that should be done by the UK's below average intelligent people who are now stuck on benefits.

Politicians and their need for stats to back up their programmes is what's to blame for this mess, make the tests easier and education looks to be better, give universities money for each student and the tech colleges chase that money and turn themselves into universities offering degrees like golf management rather than train day release apprentices. Nursing is now a univerity course along with the debt that goes with it, better to find a job in a call centre where you're unlikely to earn enough to have the debt docked from your wages.

Immigration is at the point where a city the size of Birmingham is needed every five years, where are these people going to live, look at this picture and tell me this country isn't already overcrowded.

[ATTACH]18401[/ATTACH]

Michael Foot gave us no choice on who to vote for, not Margaret Thatcher. I think it's time to drop the 'Thatcher ruined everything' line.

[Cannonball]

The problems with the UK came from the Thatcher era and the destruction of the true labour party giving us no choice in what to vote for. With Blair all we got was a load of speeches that said nothing followed by right wing policies and an illegal war in the middle east that led to the rise of Islamic State.

Blair also gave us a dumbed down education sysem that sent the just above average intelligence kids to university where they gained meaningless degrees that gave them jobs in call centres. These kids used to be the mainstay of british industry and the NHS, trained in tech colleges and real five year apprenticeships and nursing college. The CBI often cry about the lack of skilled workers and the need for immigration to fill these posts, but what we're seeing is the mass immigration of just above average intelligent eastern europeans into low skilled jobs that should be done by the UK's below average intelligent people who are now stuck on benefits.

Politicians and their need for stats to back up their programmes is what's to blame for this mess, make the tests easier and education looks to be better, give universities money for each student and the tech colleges chase that money and turn themselves into universities offering degrees like golf management rather than train day release apprentices. Nursing is now a univerity course along with the debt that goes with it, better to find a job in a call centre where you're unlikely to earn enough to have the debt docked from your wages.

Immigration is at the point where a city the size of Birmingham is needed every five years, where are these people going to live, look at this picture and tell me this country isn't already overcrowded.

[ATTACH]18401[/ATTACH]

The country is totally overcrowded by definition; we rely on food imports. I'd go Chinese and limit births to one per family, stuff the economic consequences, eating is important and if the enviro goes tits up as predicted this century, food may be more important that GDP growth. Plus, in building all these homes for all the immigrans, we're destroying our own countryside. Crazy.

Temporary immigrants bleeding the country of wealth sent home is an issue but the biggest issue to the economy are all those lovely cheap cues we see sold on here. People in Britain used to make those things, cars, cues, etc, etc. The working man in this country is being screwed every which way, imports, imported labour, hours, wage levels, rent, prices. Maybe we should all just move to Poland, buy big chunks of land and grow things for export to the UK?

[Terry Davidson]

The country is totally overcrowded by definition; we rely on food imports. I'd go Chinese and limit births to one per family, stuff the economic consequences, eating is important and if the enviro goes tits up as predicted this century, food may be more important that GDP growth. Plus, in building all these homes for all the immigrans, we're destroying our own countryside. Crazy.

Temporary immigrants bleeding the country of wealth sent home is an issue but the biggest issue to the economy are all those lovely cheap cues we see sold on here. People in Britain used to make those things, cars, cues, etc, etc. The working man in this country is being screwed every which way, imports, imported labour, hours, wage levels, rent, prices. Maybe we should all just move to Poland, buy big chunks of land and grow things for export to the UK?

In the case of cues and cars which used to be made in the UK and couldn't survive because of cheaper imports, the only way to resolve that is to put tariffs on the cheaper imports. Now you have to ask why goods from overseas are cheaper, which is usually cheaper labour coupled with cheaper goods and food costs in those countries.

My only experience with British workers was when I was an officer in the Navy and had to go to Glasgow to oversee the build of some equipment and when I was checking out one of the nearly finished pieces of equipment I discovered there were a total of 8 workers in the room however only 2 of them were actually working but it also turned out all 8 workers were charging their time to my project. Although this was a management problem and should not have been allowed to happen the management guy with me saw no problem with having 6 extra workers charging time to my project because we were locked in to this manufacturer even though I found an equivalent manufacturer in the US who would have been half the cost (talking millions of dollars here). That attitude seemed to be quite common in Britain in the 80's and was disheartening to see, especially first hand.

[ADR147]

In the case of cues and cars which used to be made in the UK and couldn't survive because of cheaper imports, the only way to resolve that is to put tariffs on the cheaper imports. Now you have to ask why goods from overseas are cheaper, which is usually cheaper labour coupled with cheaper goods and food costs in those countries.

My only experience with British workers was when I was an officer in the Navy and had to go to Glasgow to oversee the build of some equipment and when I was checking out one of the nearly finished pieces of equipment I discovered there were a total of 8 workers in the room however only 2 of them were actually working but it also turned out all 8 workers were charging their time to my project. Although this was a management problem and should not have been allowed to happen the management guy with me saw no problem with having 6 extra workers charging time to my project because we were locked in to this manufacturer even though I found an equivalent manufacturer in the US who would have been half the cost (talking millions of dollars here). That attitude seemed to be quite common in Britain in the 80's and was disheartening to see, especially first hand.

That attitude in the 70's killed several industries and is what lead to thatcher being elected.

[itsnoteasy]

Yep, it wasn't good in the seventies and early eighties. The unions were very strong and needed reigned in, unfortunately I think it's gone to far the other way now and union feels like a dirty word, when it can be the only protection a worker has, but divide and conquer aye, that's how they rule.