Brexit, in or out.

[gavpowell]

The trouble with both Saudi and India is they buy weapons from BAE and provide intelligence on IS. And, scary as it sounds, the Saudis are much nicer people than those likely to take their place. I still get worked up about this nonsense with nuclear weapons - classic Bill Hicks again: "You need to get rid of nuclear weapons. We need to keep ours because we still live in a dangerous world.."

[VillaGuy]

I'm glad the general consensus of what I've read in this forum seems to be anti-brexit. To me it has been the worst decision this country could ever have made, and from a personal point of view it's deeply limiting. I'm not a banker or a surgeon, because of this I can be deemed not economically important enough to move to another country which I want to do. I have ambitions still to move to Bulgaria and set up a falconry holiday business, but now after the vote I have to apply for permission, something that may not be granted and even if granted it could be for any reason revoked at a later point. It's a vote that has limited peoples freedoms, for nothing tangibly good. I hope the brexit will be soft, without that it'll be a nightmare. I think a lot of brexit voters thought getting back control was a brilliant philosophy, but like my predicament points out it'll lead to a loss of rights, not a gain. Comparing it with the Trump vote, brexit was alongside the media, theirs was against. Brexit was chosen by the poorest demographic on average, Trump was by the richest. Brexit is indefinite, Trump is a matter of years. The brexit vote is far far more idiotic....

[jrc750]

Falconry holiday in Bulgaria ehh, sounds like a niche market lol

[VillaGuy]

Yeah it is niche, but in todays increasingly automated world the way to stay ahead of the game is niche, something that isn't easily replicated. Spend the life behind a desk/production line or do something you're interested in. Easy decision....

[VillaGuy]

Can't bring myself to watch Question Time anymore, all the flag waving, mouth frothing xenophobes in this country makes me feel ashamed. The argument of blame it on the hard working foreigner in a spud picking farm because they aren't degree educated sounds like elitism to me. What if a brit wanted to work the bars in Italy but had no degree was prevented on doing so? Would they be saying tough luck fella you don't cut the mustard, or you aren't the right sort, or sorry mate only the people with a degree in economics or surgery can do what you want to do? It seems like the country has caught hold of an illness, where people who want to live in their hometown, in their own little restricted jobsets take control over people with ambitions that stretch themselves. The elite won't be affected, not one bit, but the electoral trying to take back control have actually and willingly given it away. Sad state of affairs.

[VillaGuy]

As much as you like the Scarboroughs, Obans, Torquays of this world you'll miss out on the Zadars, Hvars, Sozopols, Thessalonikis, Barcelonas, Viennas, Romes etc... of this world. It's like a suicidal vote, I'll never get over it. I've been to a few Hawaiian islands and the famous Hana highway, Western tropical Africa, the main US cities, many places basically but Europe is more beautiful and to throw the freedom away on trivial matters like waiting 10 minutes longer at the surgery is crazy. How about not getting medical aid in Europe? That'd be far worse for the millions of us that travel there every year

[vmax4steve]

As much as you like the Scarboroughs, Obans, Torquays of this world you'll miss out on the Zadars, Hvars, Sozopols, Thessalonikis, Barcelonas, Viennas, Romes etc... of this world. It's like a suicidal vote, I'll never get over it. I've been to a few Hawaiian islands and the famous Hana highway, Western tropical Africa, the main US cities, many places basically but Europe is more beautiful and to throw the freedom away on trivial matters like waiting 10 minutes longer at the surgery is crazy. How about not getting medical aid in Europe? That'd be far worse for the millions of us that travel there every year

All you have to do is buy some medical insurance, apply for a visa, just like it was before the UK joined the EU, and if the Bulgarian government decide that a falconry holiday park will bring in masses of tourists and boost their economy you'll get one.
Then when you've worked there for a few years you can apply to become a Bulgarian national and put up with their national medical care for the rest of your life.

There is nothing stopping you except assumptions.

Meanwhile those UK naturals without a higher education who love being english or scottish or irish or welsh can stay here and fight for their own rights without the fear of being laid off for some architect from Rumania wanting a minimum wage job in this country because it's three times what he gets at home for being an architect. If these eastern europeans are so hard working, how come british business isn't run by polish and lithuanian managers ?

The reason is it's all about using cheap labour rather than invest in new machine tools and training, and that's what people voted against, not hatred of foreignors.

Why can't eastern europeans stay at home and help their own economies develop ? after all they're in the EU now, why can't they go elsewhere in the EU, why does it have to be the UK ?

The answer to that is that Blair signed up for total free movement in 2004 saying that he and Brown expected only about 30,000 a year to come over, when the real number is ten times that, and he bloody well knew it too, bending over and taking it up the arse from the CBI who lobbied for it when the discussions were taking place.

Why do you want to move to Bulgaria when you can set up a falconry holiday park here ?

The reason is money, and the quick fix is to move. Lithuania has a population of 2.8 million yet 300,000 have moved to the UK since 2004, with just a handful of brits moving there to set up falconry holiday parks How's that helping Lithuania ?

[DeanH]

hm, been thinking what to do for the family holiday next year - falconry holiday park, hm sounds good, thanks for the idea :biggrin:

[VillaGuy]

All you have to do is buy some medical insurance, apply for a visa, just like it was before the UK joined the EU, and if the Bulgarian government decide that a falconry holiday park will bring in masses of tourists and boost their economy you'll get one.
Then when you've worked there for a few years you can apply to become a Bulgarian national and put up with their national medical care for the rest of your life.

There is nothing stopping you except assumptions.

Meanwhile those UK naturals without a higher education who love being english or scottish or irish or welsh can stay here and fight for their own rights without the fear of being laid off for some architect from Rumania wanting a minimum wage job in this country because it's three times what he gets at home for being an architect. If these eastern europeans are so hard working, how come british business isn't run by polish and lithuanian managers ?

The reason is it's all about using cheap labour rather than invest in new machine tools and training, and that's what people voted against, not hatred of foreignors.

Why can't eastern europeans stay at home and help their own economies develop ? after all they're in the EU now, why can't they go elsewhere in the EU, why does it have to be the UK ?

The answer to that is that Blair signed up for total free movement in 2004 saying that he and Brown expected only about 30,000 a year to come over, when the real number is ten times that, and he bloody well knew it too, bending over and taking it up the arse from the CBI who lobbied for it when the discussions were taking place.

Why do you want to move to Bulgaria when you can set up a falconry holiday park here ?

The reason is money, and the quick fix is to move. Lithuania has a population of 2.8 million yet 300,000 have moved to the UK since 2004, with just a handful of brits moving there to set up falconry holiday parks How's that helping Lithuania ?

It's not quite as easy as you make it out to be though, yes you've outlined the vague challenges but things can turn out to be more complicated than that can't they. What if the idea wasn't deemed attractive enough to their government? What if the business plan fails and I'm out of income for X months? What happens if their government changes and unforeseen hurdles are put in the way for example a minimum wage that a foreigner can earn and reside there, or a minimum amount you have to invest in a property? It's a major headache and it would be until gaining residency and a foreign passport.

The wage compression has been debunked, wages are compressed more because of globalistion, firms will still outsource to cheap labour even with control placed on movements, maybe not for handyman or jobs in a fixed location like housebuilding, but other jobs can be. There seems to be a lot of issues blamed on the EU that aren't anything to do with it, much is to blame on Westminster, zero hour contracts have made many feel pressures they shouldn't have to, many EU countries have a minimum monthly wage and have banned zero hour contracts from ever being used. Can you see the conservatives doing that? Without the zero hour contracts the UK hasn't got a pathetically low minimum wage anyway, the US has a higher per capita GDP, however its minimum wage is 25% less, with no free healthcare thrown in for good measure, I don't think people realised how good things were, lets hope they don't pick the isolationist route out of the EU because it won't end well. I have worked on CNC lathes making car parts, the UK the wage was £12, but in Germany they paid their workers £19 per hour for the same job, they are in the EU....not every issue can be blaimed on it like it seemed to be.

Again, another myth is they 'all' want to come to the UK, it's simply nationalistic drum beating by the hate-filled rags, the UK isn't even the number one choice.

And the way that the Eastern Europeans benefit is that the poorest and least educated can find jobs that otherwise don't exist in such numbers if they stayed put. It would place much more pressure on those countries if the UK, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland simply tried to brain drain the East leaving the rest to struggle on without the highest tax contributors, without the entrepreneurs, without the skilled social/health workers, the economies would collapse as their revenues would dissappear whilst they still have to try to provide healthcare to aging populations, education and social security. If movement is free the economic pressures aren't amplified as the social classes can move in equal proportions without being marginalised by bureaucratic controls. Free movement to me is what is the best thing with the EU, but then I like the countries, the scenery and cultures contained within it, so I would.

Why do I want to go to Bulgaria? It's very beautiful in the Rhodopes near Plovdiv, there isn't competition of its kind there, I like wild scenery not patchworks of intensively farmed land everywhere, the cost of buying property, proximity to the Greek Aegean and just a £7 train journey to Europes largest city Istanbul.

[VillaGuy]

hm, been thinking what to do for the family holiday next year - falconry holiday park, hm sounds good, thanks for the idea :biggrin:

Not quite a holiday park but here's an interesting travel trip http://www.mongolia-travel-advice.co...e-hunting.html

[DeanH]

Not quite a holiday park but here's an interesting travel trip http://www.mongolia-travel-advice.co...e-hunting.html

yep I would love to, without the ball and four little chains dragging along :wink:

[VillaGuy]

'Not hatred of foreignors', 'Why can't eastern europeans stay at home and help their own economies develop?', 'Why do you want to move to Bulgaria when you can set up a falconry holiday park here ? The reason is money, and the quick fix is to move', 'If these eastern europeans are so hard working, how come british business isn't run by polish and lithuanian managers?'

I just had to...it's clouded thinking to the extreme, not one statement is accurate. Unfortunately this we....them thinking has got a hold of society. I'm born here, they aren't.....I'd rather live in another country, does this mean I'm doing so for a nationalistic economic reason? Why can't brits stay in the UK rather than going to France, the US, Australia, Spain etc...(freedom of choice maybe?) Do people move to Spain because of money? People in the EU aren't cut out to be managers or CEOs? What a load of Daily Mail cr*p http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/m...rn-abroad.html

People who support brexit don't even know what mistake they've made. Taking back control? How? Are they really that bothered how a company is allowed to label it's products like margerine that they are then happy to give up freedom of movement. Are they that bothered about a 1% wage deflation that they are then happy to say to their sons and daughters they can't easily spend their summer months working abroad. Let's see how easy it is for work visas to be granted now for low skilled work in Spain or Greece considering they have a youth unemployment issue.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

You lost pal. Suck it up.

[VillaGuy]

You lost pal. Suck it up.

We've lost collectively, gloating about mediocrity is like being a good loser, hardly an achievement. If you're a good loser and are happy with flag waving, I'll leave you to it.

[itsnoteasy]

Villaguy do you really believe the folk that suffer the wage deflation, or only get offered zero hours contracts or part time work, are swanning off around Europe for a little gap year work after uni, that is Their life, they are struggling, and wage deflation is vast, an example I saw on the tv was a truck driver who was on £14 an hour, then the influx of Europeans came who were willing to work for minimum wage as it's still two or three times what they get at home and he was offered £7 odd or there's the door,near enough a fifty percent wage cut, what is he meant to do ? these people's sons and daughters will follow them into poorly paid jobs and the vast majority will live the rest of their lives on the bottom rung. I'm not saying brexit was right but I can sure as he'll understand why folk voted for it without coming out with this racist pish. Immigration is good there is no doubt about that, uncontrolled immigration is not, even the left are wakening up to that fact, we were told there would be 30,000 max coming here by Blair, the truth is there has been ten times that every year, the pressure that has put on the bottom workers let alone social housing, doctors ,accident and emergency departments that are used as out of hours surgeries now, is just incredible, it's too much too quickly.