Brexit, in or out.

[Cannonball]

Why would he be mentioned

Bepends if Boris is near a microphone. He's nearly as badly worded as the thread title; 'Brexit, in or out'.

[itsnoteasy]

Bepends if Boris is near a microphone. He's nearly as badly worded as the thread title; 'Brexit, in or out'.

Haha, good spot CB, out, in or out ? Lol

[Cannonball]

Haha, good spot CB, out, in or out ? Lol

You put your Cameron in
Your Johnson out
In, out, in, out,
You shake it all about.
You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn around
That's what it's all about...

[Terry Davidson]

Agreed, we moan folk don't post and share their opinions, then tell them to shut up when they do. I think if anyone who wasn't born here has a right to give their opinion it's Terry, he lived here for years and has probably a better understanding of things than most of those that do have a vote.

Besides which, my wife is British and follows the debate closely. For this discussion I tend to agree with Andrew as I believe Britain would be better off remaining. At least the EU keeps or at least helps to keep the British politicians inline as some of them have already stated they would like to get rid of those pesky worker's rights from the EU.

If the minimum wage was raised then there would be no advantage for British firms to bring in foreign workers and I would assume in that case they would go 'British First'. Both the USA and Canada have a law that says firms over here must prove they could not find a citizen to hire for any and all jobs they fill. That might go a long way towards helping the downtrodden British working man.

[The Statman]

I'm definitely undecided.

The problem for me, and it is as noticeable here as much as it is in any other discussion on the topic, is that no SINGLE person or organisation has come up with a cogent presentation of the pros/cons.

You have one set of people saying we should vote LEAVE for lots of reasons that it would be better.
You have another set of people saying we should vote STAY for lots of reasons that it would be better.
Both sides may be being perfectly honest.

But the truth is clearly that some things will be better, other things will be worse, and other things will barely be affected. It needs for someone, somewhere, to seriously put out all the pros and cons in ONE document, that is understood to be correct.

As it is, we just have two sides completely separate and arguing against each other without any acknowledgement that the 'other side' has valid points. And the common person has no idea really what to think.

[Cannonball]

Besides which, my wife is British and follows the debate closely. For this discussion I tend to agree with Andrew as I believe Britain would be better off remaining. At least the EU keeps or at least helps to keep the British politicians inline as some of them have already stated they would like to get rid of those pesky worker's rights from the EU.

If the minimum wage was raised then there would be no advantage for British firms to bring in foreign workers and I would assume in that case they would go 'British First'. Both the USA and Canada have a law that says firms over here must prove they could not find a citizen to hire for any and all jobs they fill. That might go a long way towards helping the downtrodden British working man.

Your command of labour supply is puzzling. If the minimum wage goes up, profits ceteris parabus go down. Wage inflation (cost-push inflation) bleeds into the system and interest rates may have to go up. But with near deflation the main threat, a rates rise may be averted. However, gang-masters of cheap euro labour flouting the wage would be in greater demand and legally, even more eastern-euros would be sucked into the UK as the disparity between say the UK and Polish wage widened. So we could end up with even more pressure on housing and public services. The solution to this would be to raise the wage and encourage firms to employ only British labour but this would end up in the EU court (allbeit after a number of years). The same could be done to UK landlords, encourage them not to house euros but again, a discrimination case would beckon.

That's the problem (and beef brexiters have), no control over our borders and much of our economic policy/legislative ability.

Anyway, it can be read in Keynes. The doyen of the subject.

[gavpowell]

It needs for someone, somewhere, to seriously put out all the pros and cons in ONE document, that is understood to be correct.

https://fullfact.org/ have been doing just that wherever possible, but the trouble is, a lot of information simply isn't known, is possibly uknowable and can be interpreted in a variety of different ways.

If any proof were needed of how little we can trust our own government, the Prime Minister used PMQs a month ago to accuse Sadiq Khan of supporting Islamic State by association, because he'd shared a platform with Sulaiman Ghani. This weekend, he was himself sharing a platform with Sadiq Khan and calling him "A proud muslim and a proud Briton - an example to all of what this country can do"

On the basis I do not wish to give Mr Cameron or his ilk any more autonomy than they have already, I will be voting to stay in.

[gavpowell]

Your command of labour supply is puzzling. If the minimum wage goes up, profits ceteris parabus go down. Wage inflation (cost-push inflation) bleeds into the system and interest rates may have to go up. But with near deflation the main threat, a rates rise may be averted. However, gang-masters of cheap euro labour flouting the wage would be in greater demand and legally, even more eastern-euros would be sucked into the UK as the disparity between say the UK and Polish wage widened. So we could end up with even more pressure on housing and public services. The solution to this would be to raise the wage and encourage firms to employ only British labour but this would end up in the EU court (allbeit after a number of years). The same could be done to UK landlords, encourage them not to house euros but again, a discrimination case would beckon.

That's the problem (and beef brexiters have), no control over our borders and much of our economic policy/legislative ability.

We have quite a lot of control over our borders - we can even press an emergency stop button. We can stop all these people coming from outside the EU, but we don't. And of course there's no guarantee that the government would want to stop immigration from the EU.

It would help if we had some actual economists running the economy instead of chancellors who consistently play politics with the public finances(Osborne spends 5 years saying how we have to cut everything to the bone to reduce the deficit as quickly as possible, suddenly gets a windfall from tax receipts and gives it all away, then 3 months later says "Hmm, we're not doing as well as I'd hoped - we need to make more cuts to save money"

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

https://fullfact.org/ have been doing just that wherever possible, but the trouble is, a lot of information simply isn't known, is possibly uknowable and can be interpreted in a variety of different ways.

If any proof were needed of how little we can trust our own government, the Prime Minister used PMQs a month ago to accuse Sadiq Khan of supporting Islamic State by association, because he'd shared a platform with Sulaiman Ghani. This weekend, he was himself sharing a platform with Sadiq Khan and calling him "A proud muslim and a proud Briton - an example to all of what this country can do"

On the basis I do not wish to give Mr Cameron or his ilk any more autonomy than they have already, I will be voting to stay in.

You dislike Cameron so you want to give autonomy to bureaucrats we cannot control?

I'm not sure whether the turkeys are voting for Christmas already or it's the first cuckoo of spring i hear. Either way, you should be ashamed.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

We have quite a lot of control over our borders - we can even press an emergency stop button. We can stop all these people coming from outside the EU, but we don't. And of course there's no guarantee that the government would want to stop immigration from the EU.

It would help if we had some actual economists running the economy instead of chancellors who consistently play politics with the public finances(Osborne spends 5 years saying how we have to cut everything to the bone to reduce the deficit as quickly as possible, suddenly gets a windfall from tax receipts and gives it all away, then 3 months later says "Hmm, we're not doing as well as I'd hoped - we need to make more cuts to save money"

Which windfall are you referring to and to whom did he give it? And the very last thing we need is the country being run by proponents of the dismal science, who rarely seem to spot anything.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

The old right/left dialectic is fascinating here. The left want to save the world, on someone else's dime, of course, and are flag waving the modest economic gains mass migration MAY provide, whilst the right is suddenly more concerned with the plight of the working poor than with economic prosperity. Erm...

And then there's the neo liberal elite in the middle, creaming off both sides. Gentlemen, brave new world. I would urge all to choose their poison carefully.

[itsnoteasy]

All governments spend other people's money , no governments have their own money.

[Cannonball]

The old right/left dialectic is fascinating here. The left want to save the world, on someone else's dime, of course, and are flag waving the modest economic gains mass migration MAY provide, whilst the right is suddenly more concerned with the plight of the working poor than with economic prosperity. Erm...

And then there's the neo liberal elite in the middle, creaming off both sides. Gentlemen, brave new world. I would urge all to choose their poison carefully.

Never vote for anyone who wants to stand for election. Liars and thieves, and usually, with very little experience of the real world.

But yeah, isn't it funnily ironic that Labour and non-white voters could save Cameron's bacon; just the people he loathes.

Here's the bottom on line on Europe folks:

- It will be crap if we stay.

- It will be crap if we leave.

The vote (and argument) is about the type and level of crap we wish to endure. But neither way will be pretty.

[Leo]

You dislike Cameron so you want to give autonomy to bureaucrats we cannot control?

I'm not sure whether the turkeys are voting for Christmas already or it's the first cuckoo of spring i hear. Either way, you should be ashamed.

Gav has lost the plot.

The referendum is now tuning out to be about class you know the one, it's obvious that the rich will only benefit of remaining yet for some unknown reason I see a lot of working class voting to remain.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Never vote for anyone who wants to stand for election. Liars and thieves, and usually, with very little experience of the real world.

But yeah, isn't it funnily ironic that Labour and non-white voters could save Cameron's bacon; just the people he loathes.

Here's the bottom on line on Europe folks:

- It will be crap if we stay.

- It will be crap if we leave.

The vote (and argument) is about the type and level of crap we wish to endure. But neither way will be pretty.

Isn't the B side more apt? Although it was a double A, IIRC. certainly a better tune, at any rate.

Go back in time 30 years, when we still had a little industry. Tell the unionised work force to vote on whether to accept millions of cheap workers from abroad, to make up 15% of the work force. Tell them they will take their jobs, or compress their salaries. Tell them they'll force up rents and house prices to EIGHT times the average wage. Tell them their kids will never be able to afford their own homes, and they'll have to wait 2 weeks to see a doctor.

Then ask them to vote on the proposition. There is not a chance we'd be in this position today if we had been given the chance to vote then. The ruling elite know this damn well. Their ultimate goal is to remove the right to vote entirely.

Democracy in this country has gone, ahem, straight to hell. Fight The Power, booyyyyyy!