Brexit, in or out.

[Big Splash!]

The mkts are dead cat bounce; well the ftse is, which is actually made up of a lot of foreign companies unaffected by Brexit. The more representative 250 is still down and the pound is still on the floor.

As Tam Dalyell says, the voters were deceived, they had no idea they were voting us out of the single market and into mass unemployment. There is no way they would have voted out on that basis. Thatcher was against refs, she believed in MPs making decisions because the people don't have the ability, information or wisdom. I agree with her.

[Big Splash!]

We could end up with stalemate. The next PM refusing to pull the trigger until he hears some nice noises about us getting the single mkt + border control. The EU refusing border control. A PM trapped by Leave demands but unwilling to pull the trigger because of remain/business demands.

[itsnoteasy]

We could end up with stalemate. The next PM refusing to pull the trigger until he hears some nice noises about us getting the single mkt + border control. The EU refusing border control. A PM trapped by Leave demands but unwilling to pull the trigger because of remain/business demands.

I think this is a definite possibility.
I think the markets may just wait until the trigger is pulled ,as soon as that happens they will panick as usual, then steady, then wait until they see the deal, then panick again, it's what they do, there's no big money to be made in stability, then within two years we will be ok, as long as the deals ok, and Farage keeps his stupid mouth shut, how he thinks telling them other countries are queuing up to leave is helping , does he think that encourages them to give us a decent deal ,or punish us hard as a warning to others thinking of leaving, he really is a drivel mouth.

[Big Splash!]

Yes, let's say we do get single market but with free movement, something boris and may would be open to they say. We'd probably have to agree to most EU standards/rules as well but most of the rules are actually good. UKIP would then campaign to rip that deal up even if it was agreed by the con party/ref 2. He won't be happy until he's taken us back to just after the end of ww2. I liked his oft used line to the EU parliament, you've never had a proper job in your lives. Says a bloke who went to public school then ended up being a metals trader in the city. The traders he's now seeking to stuff because they're fat cats out of touch and we don't need single market access at any price. The guy is full of it.

[vmax4steve]

Thatcher was against refs, she believed in MPs making decisions because the people don't have the ability, information or wisdom. I agree with her.

Yeah right, appointed as home secretary because he's an expert on home affairs, appointed as foreign secretary 'cos he's an expert on foreign affairs, appointed as chancellor 'cos he's an expert on economics, appointed as education secretary 'cos he's an expert on education, appointed as minister for transport 'cos he a blah blah blah, I could go on and on.

This could be one person or many, but the truth is they know sod all, career politicians who go to ministerial posts along with their advisors and try to get their legislative ideology across to the civil servants who run these government departments and actually have the knowlege whether it can be achieved along with the brains to do the work.

Gordon Brown has a degree in economics and yet sold off half our gold reserves when prices were low between 1999 and 2002, borrowed billions, introduced the PFI to the NHS which has proved to be a disaster, and he was one of the 'experts' telling us to vote remain, along with new labour's chief liar Alaistair Campbell.

[ADR147]

Twenty percent of all cars produced in Germany are exported to the UK, how many thousands of jobs would go if they stopped exporting to us? I doubt there is any company that could survive a twenty percent drop in their exports without massive cost cutting, which means jobs and factories closing.
I would also add the UK, is the biggest single export market for European goods and services,in the whole world.

I was trying to not get involved but here are a few things to think about, what we export can either be purchased elsewhere in the EU or is not British controlled, We are a huge exporter of cars for example, millions of job depend on it, we make more cars than Italy but they are all not UK owned. So if the Eu puts a 20 % tarriff on UK goods they can buy their grains, meat, electricals, etc elsewhere in the Eu cheaper, boosting money for the EU, then they offer a billion pound grant to build a car factory or several in lets say Romania, Nissan, Honda, Toyota etc can all up sticks and build cars there with lower overheads and no taxes. Whereas we import BMW's Mercs, wine etc, none of which we are able to produce, and we have a taste for the finer things so we will still buy them whatever the costs, it is not like we are going to start buying American cars, on this trade deal thing brexit people have been very very naive, they have us over a barrel and they know it. There is no chance whatsoever that the EU is going to give us a trade deal without free movement of people and the very least the deal will cost will be £350m a week with no rebates and no investment this way. If I were the French President or the German Chancellor I would veto any deal that made the UK better off, and Spain and Belgium will veto any deal that looks good for Scotland etc because that would encourage separation in their own countries. If you are looking at any of this from the outside I promise the very best we can ever hope for is a slightly worse deal than we had before we left.

[ADR147]

That seems a bit biast to me ADR even though you normally sit on that fence or at least appear to. So if they do bung a 20% tariff on our goods and we bung the same back. We are still winners because we Import more than Export to Europe.
Do yourself a favour buy a classic British car, drink British beer instead of French plonk and if Scotland does join with Europe Invest in cement. Your gonna need loads of it to patch up Hadrians Wall if you want a border.

You are missing the point - we need them for our imports, they do not need us for our exports. look it up

[ADR147]

We imported bugger all from Europe during the war and would have been fine had u boats not sunk imports from the rest of the world. What is Europe gonna do then now mass produce subs?

I just don't see your logic mate.

I struggle to think down to your level

[ADR147]

I struggle to think down to your level


Now that is insulting Much as I think your a mate I'd deck you right now if you were here.

People always have that bravado when they are not standing in front of me I will wait and see if we manage to produce our own car industry - history tells us we were not so good at it.

[Big Splash!]

Wity, Land Rover Jaguar wouldn't agree with you. If the EU said you can have the single mkt but it has to be free movement of people, would you really tell them to sod off? Would you really put a few million people on the dole? And destroy Rolls Royce Engines (Airbus supplier) and Jaguar Land Rover amongst others?

And whose gonna pick all the fruit, serve customers at Lidl?Aldi, do the care home jobs, wash the cars. Because before Poles came over, employers couldn't get Brits to do it for £7 an hour. And don't say let's just put the wages up because the first people to moan at the consequences of that will be Brexiters saying my mom's care home costs have gone up to £800 a week, my strawberries cost £5 a punnet, everything at Lidl has gone up in price.

Economics is complex, international and technically difficult. No country, not even the US gets everything it wants without giving up something. And we ain't the US, we're a former empire long gone and dwindling. Our economy has fallen behind France now and it will slip further behind the Asian tigers coming up. We need friends, not enemies on our doorstep.

[Byrom]

Sure share your point of view In or out witty but threatening to deck someone then asking them to apologise is sad mate. The powers that be will probably vanish you again for that which is a shame cos you liven up the forum.

You have strong opinions which is good but a discussion is a two way street. I don't agree with Adr on this issue but understand his point of view and he probably don't agree with me but he has not reduced the argument down a level you just did.

It was always going to be a argument waiting to happen this thread.

[Terry Davidson]

It sure looks like some people are wearing rose tinted glasses with regards to leaving the EU. It wasn't a majority of British people who voted to leave but rather around 36% or so. Tell me how that's a majority unless you only consider the one vote. One vote is not democracy by any definition.

The BS from Brexit about pulling together to make Britain great again is really just dreaming. Christ, even Boris has decided to desert the British ship and perhaps there's a message there for the leavers. It's just not viable. How in hell can the average British person 'work together' to make Britain great again?

[Giggity1984]

FYI Terry 17.5 million out of 36 million ELEGIBLE voted to leave. Not everyone is entitled to vote(quite right too).

[itsnoteasy]

Airbus can't go anywhere, we make the wings, nowhere else in the world makes them, as for the engines, they don't buy RR engines because they are a bargain they buy them because they are the best, there isn't a hope in hell of them going elsewhere, I'm not blind to the problems that may lie ahead but some of this doom and gloom stuff is boardering on the utter ridiculous now, you can talk yourself into a recession you know, we have done it before.Trade and companies don't recognise national boarders now and when TTIP is signed ( and it will be the politicians can moan all they want but they don't run things)it will be illegal to stop companies all having the same rights to trade in your country, so all this tariff talk is pointless, and obsolete or will be very soon.
This has been a great thread , mixed strong opinions but civil at the same time, a credit to those that have taken part as I doubt many places could have held a point and counter point discussion like we have ,on such a heated subject ,and not have it decend into chaos within half a dozen posts.
One more point, please remember there are only two solvent countries in the Euro zone now ,Germany and France, and I'm not sure about France, add to that they have just lost 15% (that's one pound in every six/seven they had) of their budget, that is some hit to take. Europes stock markets are piddly in comparison to the city of London, talk of moving the financial centre to Germany is laughable. Look at what happened to them on the news we voted to leave, they crashed as much as us, that's jobs and wage cuts and tax rises for them aswell, no politician will want that, they know they will get lobbed out, so even if it's just for self preservation ,they will want a deal that will not spook the markets too much.

[Big Splash!]

It sure looks like some people are wearing rose tinted glasses with regards to leaving the EU. It wasn't a majority of British people who voted to leave but rather around 36% or so. Tell me how that's a majority unless you only consider the one vote. One vote is not democracy by any definition.

The BS from Brexit about pulling together to make Britain great again is really just dreaming. Christ, even Boris has decided to desert the British ship and perhaps there's a message there for the leavers. It's just not viable. How in hell can the average British person 'work together' to make Britain great again?

Empire dreamers and history boffins with no reality check mate.