Brexit, in or out.

[ADR147]

It's also natural for those it doesn't affect to tell those it does they are wrong, that's why you end up with votes like this, it's a backlash of years and years of being told you are wrong immigration is good for you, stop moaning we know better, the self righteous jump up and down and shout racist, they didn't want a debate, they were right and everybody else was wrong, well the utter arrogance they showed turned and bit them on the bum, it was a vote of, if you won't listen,we will make you.

The crazy thing is the people who voted for it will be the ones to feel the most pain from it. I am already about £7k worse off just in currency transactions - those costs eventually get passed on, and if I am worse off as an importer then everybody else will be also.

[jonny66]

The crazy thing is the people who voted for it will be the ones to feel the most pain from it. I am already about £7k worse off just in currency transactions - those costs eventually get passed on, and if I am worse off as an importer then everybody else will be also.

I'm not blaming you here Andrew.

The line in bold is a massive problem with modern economics. All losses will be passed on, while profits are not. Socialise the losses and privatise the profits, the bank bail out is a prime example. The exact thing the Labour party are supposed to be against, but they have proven themselves to be just as bad as the blue tories, it would be nice if Corbyn could change that but I'm not holding my breath.

[ADR147]

I'm not blaming you here Andrew.

The line in bold is a massive problem with modern economics. All losses will be passed on, while profits are not. Socialise the losses and privatise the profits, the bank bail out is a prime example. The exact thing the Labour party are supposed to be against, but they have proven themselves to be just as bad as the blue tories, it would be nice if Corbyn could change that but I'm not holding my breath.

I invested £90k last year and made a £3k loss. No sign of anybody bailing me out yet!

[itsnoteasy]

The crazy thing is the people who voted for it will be the ones to feel the most pain from it. I am already about £7k worse off just in currency transactions - those costs eventually get passed on, and if I am worse off as an importer then everybody else will be also.

You are probably right ADR but they always get screwed what ever happens. Maybe if the big companies hadn't been so greedy ,paid decent wages ,made a fair,decent profit,not paid obscene bonuses and paid their taxes,people wouldn't have felt so resentful and this might not have happened . If folk are doing well, immigration isn't even an issue usually.

[ADR147]

You are probably right ADR but they always get screwed what ever happens. Maybe if the big companies hadn't been so greedy ,paid decent wages ,made a fair,decent profit,not paid obscene bonuses and paid their taxes,people wouldn't have felt so resentful and this might not have happened . If folk are doing well, immigration isn't even an issue usually.

corporate greed is not a new thing - buy your stuff from small local retailers and people like me

[Big Splash!]

corporate greed is not a new thing - buy your stuff from small local retailers and people like me

The reason the poor have revolted and voted Brexit is precisely because of sharp elbowed importers who have willingly exported their jobs to Asia. Let's all have a Thai made cue, sod the folk who used to be employed by British Cue makers who have gone to the wall. But hey, the quality of your hotel and your Merc are far more important than the people of this land. The capitalists want deregulated markets, they're the ones who voted Thatcher in to destroy the unions and destroy job protection and wage protection. They got what they wanted by conning the masses to vote like Turkeys for Xmas; Thatcher. Blair/Brown deregulated financial markets and no govt. in my life will have the balls to stand up for any ordinary people, those with wealth will screw us again and again; it's in their sticky fingered interests.

Even retail jobs have gone and when App controlled stores mean no retail jobs at all, when the computers mean no accountants and bankers and a whole host of other professions and the middle class are screwed, that's when Marx's real revolution will start. This will even happen in China when people there are entirely redundant as well. That's capitalism for ya, a race to the bottom, screwing everyone and the planet in the process. And all because of greed...................

[ADR147]

The reason the poor have revolted and voted Brexit is precisely because of sharp elbowed importers who have willingly exported their jobs to Asia. Let's all have a Thai made cue, sod the folk who used to be employed by British Cue makers who have gone to the wall. But hey, the quality of your hotel and your Merc are far more important than the people of this land. The capitalists want deregulated markets, they're the ones who voted Thatcher in to destroy the unions and destroy job protection and wage protection. They got what they wanted by conning the masses to vote like Turkeys for Xmas; Thatcher. Blair/Brown deregulated financial markets and no govt. in my life will have the balls to stand up for any ordinary people, those with wealth will screw us again and again; it's in their sticky fingered interests.

Even retail jobs have gone and when App controlled stores mean no retail jobs at all, when the computers mean no accountants and bankers and a whole host of other professions and the middle class are screwed, that's when Marx's real revolution will start. This will even happen in China when people there are entirely redundant as well. That's capitalism for ya, a race to the bottom, screwing everyone and the planet in the process. And all because of greed...................

You clearly are a bit thick about what happened to UK cue makers and why. You have a better idea than capitalism? Name a successful socialist government.

[itsnoteasy]

You clearly are a bit thick about what happened to UK cue makers and why. You have a better idea than capitalism? Name a successful socialist government.

You could have socially responsible capitalism, there was a time not that long ago when those at the top didn't make hundreds and hundreds times more than those on an average wage( not the bottom mind the average) of those that worked in the same company. Wealth distribution is unreal now ,I can't recall the exact figures but it's way beyond the top ten percent own way over ninety percent of the total wealth, this shouldn't be so. If these big companies paid their share everyone would benefit, if everyone pays their bit, taxes are a good thing for the many. Reagan trickle down economics doesn't work, letting the rich get as rich as possible thinking they would share the wealth was just a con trick to let them get rich, all they did was keep it and paid their workers less in a deregulated market, remember we were told the minimum wage would lead to millions of job losses, by the cbi and the tories , just more scare tactics to keep us in our place, this is when real unadulterated greed set into capitalism, just look at the food that's produced globally ,We easily produce enough food to feed the whole world but we would rather see it ploughed back into the soil or poured down the drain to keep the prices up, than feed starving kids, what does that say about us? That's other human beings we gladly let die because we don't want to see someone get something for less than we have to pay for it, if that's capitalism working, it's not great is it.

[VillaGuy]

You could have socially responsible capitalism, there was a time not that long ago when those at the top didn't make hundreds and hundreds times more than those on an average wage( not the bottom mind the average) of those that worked in the same company. Wealth distribution is unreal now ,I can't recall the exact figures but it's way beyond the top ten percent own way over ninety percent of the total wealth, this shouldn't be so. If these big companies paid their share everyone would benefit, if everyone pays their bit, taxes are a good thing for the many. Reagan trickle down economics doesn't work, letting the rich get as rich as possible thinking they would share the wealth was just a con trick to let them get rich, all they did was keep it and paid their workers less in a deregulated market, remember we were told the minimum wage would lead to millions of job losses, by the cbi and the tories , just more scare tactics to keep us in our place, this is when real unadulterated greed set into capitalism, just look at the food that's produced globally ,We easily produce enough food to feed the whole world but we would rather see it ploughed back into the soil or poured down the drain to keep the prices up, than feed starving kids, what does that say about us? That's other human beings we gladly let die because we don't want to see someone get something for less than we have to pay for it, if that's capitalism working, it's not great is it.

The debate has gone slightly off the EU topic, although the economics of the issue is important, the EU isn't the birthplace of globalisation and you can look closer to home for the culprit of that. If inequality is what has driven this vote, why then vote for politicians advocating a more American style system, a country with higher inequalities than the rest of the corporate world, 6.5% of the population living on trailor parks and no healthcare? It seems bizarre, the EU in most parts has better equality levels than the UK, has better infrastructure (countries of similiar wealth do at least) yet the blame lies with the EU? I really don't get the logic.

Obviously capitalism is working like a giant ponzi scheme, it always has to an extent, and with the decrease in the size of workforce needed with greater efficiencies and automated systems something will have to give at some point into the future to stop massive social unrest. The Brexit was massive social unrest, and I guess it's symptomatic of the disatisfaction of the changes aforementioned as much as it is of the immigrants. But what is the solution? Well it's not to vote your rights away that is for sure There will be a return to a socialist/communist system in the future I'm certain, some of its faults weren't actually through the failures in its own design but outside sinister influences, capitalism played to peoples greeds which in turn led to corruption within the centrally planned economies. But apart from not allowing people to be greedy (positive?), uniformity of lifestyles and lack of consumer choice, socialism had strong positives like gauranteed work, housing for all, holidays for all, free healthcare, education systems tailored to the countries specific demands. If you look at photos of Bulgaria in the 60's/70' the place is immaculate, the buildings look all well kept and many have resented the transition even to this day, it's propaganda that tells us they are wrong nad we were right.

Modern day media I think has fuelled the flames of unrest, all these 'get famous fast' TV shows, social media where normal people can follow the lifestyles of famous celebrities or high profile businessmen. You can see why someone who has lost their job to be confronted by minimum wage work on zero hour contracts is going to think the world isn't fair, but it never was fair, just their noses are getting rubbed in it a bit more these days. Then there are spoof newspapers like The Sun and Daily Mail trying to tell them the issue is someone born overseas doing the jobs not many want to do on the national minimum wage---that's the culprit these bloody foreigners

I don't want to continue blaming people for voting Brexit, I've lost a few friends already, as I can see how it's got to this. But surely they can see they have shot themselves in their own feet? If not now, maybe when the prices rise, and the manufacturers move to the EU

[ADR147]

You could have socially responsible capitalism, there was a time not that long ago when those at the top didn't make hundreds and hundreds times more than those on an average wage( not the bottom mind the average) of those that worked in the same company. Wealth distribution is unreal now ,I can't recall the exact figures but it's way beyond the top ten percent own way over ninety percent of the total wealth, this shouldn't be so. If these big companies paid their share everyone would benefit, if everyone pays their bit, taxes are a good thing for the many. Reagan trickle down economics doesn't work, letting the rich get as rich as possible thinking they would share the wealth was just a con trick to let them get rich, all they did was keep it and paid their workers less in a deregulated market, remember we were told the minimum wage would lead to millions of job losses, by the cbi and the tories , just more scare tactics to keep us in our place, this is when real unadulterated greed set into capitalism, just look at the food that's produced globally ,We easily produce enough food to feed the whole world but we would rather see it ploughed back into the soil or poured down the drain to keep the prices up, than feed starving kids, what does that say about us? That's other human beings we gladly let die because we don't want to see someone get something for less than we have to pay for it, if that's capitalism working, it's not great is it.

the top 1% are the problem they have more than 50% of the money!

[VillaGuy]

I think in some parts of the world (Scandinavia provinces, cities in Canada) they are trialling a wage for unemployed people, they talked about it in Switzerland for the whole nation but was rejected-for now. This is the way forward I think, it's like communism/capitalist mix, people still can extend themselves/get lucky whatever way they can to get rich but people aren't left behind. I guess the question that I think is important to be asked is, do you want to be centrally planned on an Island with freedoms only within, or centrally planned on a continent with much more variation? Do you want to limit freedoms to have a proud Nation, or would you rather have greater freedoms over a united continent? I know this is somewhat hypothetical right now, but it's the way things are heading. I value my freedoms which is why I argue for the case that I do.

[gavpowell]

You have a better idea than capitalism? Name a successful socialist government.

Technically, there have never been any purely socialist governments, but nor are there any successful purely capitalist ones - extremes rarely work out well, as you know. It would be interesting to know how Cuba would have fared without the embargo though - it wouldn't have made the Castro regime in any way acceptable, mind, but I'd love to know how it would have worked out if left to thrive.

It's funny, so many people trot out the old cliché about all religions being evil, starting wars etc. but I wouldn't mind the Quaker ethos being reintroduced to British business - macho management is a horrible way to run a company.

[VillaGuy]

Technically, there have never been any purely socialist governments, but nor are there any successful purely capitalist ones - extremes rarely work out well, as you know. It would be interesting to know how Cuba would have fared without the embargo though - it wouldn't have made the Castro regime in any way acceptable, mind, but I'd love to know how it would have worked out if left to thrive.

It's funny, so many people trot out the old cliché about all religions being evil, starting wars etc. but I wouldn't mind the Quaker ethos being reintroduced to British business - macho management is a horrible way to run a company.

I don't reckon it's theoretically possible for a socialist country to make it in a capitalist world. The thing is could a totally capitalist world ever survive without suppression? Doubt it. Whereas a totally socialist world could, if equality was truly universal.

[VillaGuy]

I've studied the history of Bulgaria to quite a detail, they really suffered during the transition from communism. One of the reasons being they had such a reliance on that kind of governance and had been the most succesful country under it, they had also become the silicon valley of the COMECON. Joining the capitalist structure the economy dived below 40% of what it was and a significant proportion of the skilled working class went with it, mainly to the US (Mark Zuckerbergs parents are from Bulgaria). It has led to a massive decline the government are unsure still of how to arrest despite some positive factors. A losing battle for now. But you can't blaim it on socialism, more the transition to capitalism.

[VillaGuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJOiGhgCN8Q Not sure if I approve of what they do. Thing is when they get to Bulgaria and they don't like it what do they want? A heavenly lifestyle. The world is a mess.