Looking for a John Parris ultimate

[j6uk]

Do like CJ's work

[throtts]

Have a look at his website: http://greenbaize.co.uk/gbl.htm

It sure does state it, cheers..

Lovely looking cues on there..

[j6uk]

If a cue maker has refined and defined the shaft to the hit, spliced and finished the cue. I believe they can claim that cue to be there's and made by them.

[Bigmeek]

Yes me too.
Anyone badging a product as their own, which suggests it has been made in the UK, when in reality it's been made somewhere else by someone else, outside the UK, is nothing short of fraud in my eyes.
It really pisses me off that this sort of crap threatens to tarnish ALL UK makers. Some of us do our own work, solely here in the UK.

Trev1. Do you have an opinion on where the cut-off point is for a cue to be regarded as "hand made in England"? I'm thinking of the scenario where someone imports shafts which have already been cut down to inch square bits. Would that still be acceptable?

[svendh]

I think it is no problem if the cuemaker tells it like GBL does. And for sure there are good asia made cues, although i haven't seen a really good one yet. But if you want the real deal go to an serious cuemaker like TW, JP or MW.

[DeanH]

Trev1. Do you have an opinion on where the cut-off point is for a cue to be regarded as "hand made in England"? I'm thinking of the scenario where someone imports shafts which have already been cut down to inch square bits. Would that still be acceptable?

I think that is the wrong way round?
Is it not square planks cut down to round shafts?

[Bigmeek]

I think that is the wrong way round?
Is it not square planks cut down to round shafts?

Don't really know TBH but I'd heard that the planks were cut to one inch squares. Been told that some cue makers are sourcing their timber from India to cut down on the costs. Personally I don't care where the material comes from so long as the quality is good. I guess when you start importing stuff to cut down on costs you sacrifice a bit on the quality control side of things. If you read the John Parris website it says that JP personally visits the timber yards to select his wood. Assume this means he only gets the best bits?
PS I had always thought that it was the UK cue maker who planed the one inch square bits down into something recogniseable as a shaft. Just guessing.

[DeanH]

I believe they are around 1.5" to 2" square, and then are planed/turned down to rough tapered shafts. Then final bits are done, etc.
This theme has been discussed many times, i.e. how much does the maker need to do to make the cue a handmade cue? If planed or turned - handmade or machine made, etc.
I have no problem for a maker sourcing pre-turned oversized shafts, instead of planks. It is what they do with them after.

JP going to wood yards, best bits: you would think but even he says that most of the stock he gets is still not brilliant.
Someone did say on another thread that looking at a plank does not give a precise indication on what sort of cue, grain, etc is inside

[Bigmeek]

Yes I remember threads where this was discussed but I can't remember if there was a consensus reached and hence I thought I'd ask Trev if had an opinion. Personally I don't care where or who makes the cue so long as its a good one. I guess I would be pee'd off tho if the badge said "made in England" and it wasn't but I think most cues just say "handmade' and don't mention country.

[crispian jones]

It's no secret they're made in Thailand hence, even states it on his website, he's the only one of many to be upfront about this topic...

?????? my customised cues are badged as customised !!! would sell for a lot more with a handmade badge though

[rob s]

?????? my customised cues are badged as customised !!! would sell for a lot more with a handmade badge though

Same as Dave coutts who badges them as customised cues. That why I have an order with both you crispian and Dave coutts as you can guarantee they were fully made in the UK so they are worth paying that amount of money for. I'm using a Trevor white at the moment and my last cue was a robin cook which are another 2 cuemakers who genuinely make the cues themselves in the UK and will even allow you in their workshop to see things in progress

[louise sheldon]

Why do people think there is such a long waiting time for the parris ultimate when he has a good work force? its because the ash that is needed is extremely rare in this country due to the fact that we only get first and second grade ash where as thailand and china with there buying power are getting all the best ash, thailand also has its asian ash which seems to be very straight grained, this makes it possible for them to supply to cue converters already with an ebony splice on to the uk. You only need to do your maths to ask how can some 'cue makers' be churning out great looking shafts when in reality out of every hand selected boards that have been cut into squares that are 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" only 4 or 5 out of every 100 makes an ultimate shaft. As trevor says it is fraud and affects the true cue makers who are doing it properly.

[trevs1]

Why do people think there is such a long waiting time for the parris ultimate when he has a good work force? its because the ash that is needed is extremely rare in this country due to the fact that we only get first and second grade ash where as thailand and china with there buying power are getting all the best ash, thailand also has its asian ash which seems to be very straight grained, this makes it possible for them to supply to cue converters already with an ebony splice on to the uk. You only need to do your maths to ask how can some 'cue makers' be churning out great looking shafts when in reality out of every hand selected boards that have been cut into squares that are 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" only 4 or 5 out of every 100 makes an ultimate shaft. As trevor says it is fraud and affects the true cue makers who are doing it properly.

Well said Dave.

I have always been of the opinion that the whole process of sourcing part made (or even fully made) cues from overseas, and selling them as being made in the UK, is nothing short of criminal. Well, it now seems that anyone and everyone is under suspicion of this practise, and, to some extent, it's likely to affect those who actually DO produce cues here in the UK (not all in England by the way...I am Welsh).

I think that's utterly tragic.

As for the question of timber and how it's sourced, well, that's a book in itself. However, speaking for myself...

I choose all, and I mean every single bit of the timber for every shaft I use, from a timber merchant here in the UK. The name of the timber merchant I almost always use is James Lathem. They are a large merchant who have branches across the UK. I travel to them and they allow me to select the timber I want, as they know how critical the right timber is for my purposes. What I might want is very different to what someone who does shopfitting, or general joinery work might want. They are very accommodating to me and I appreciate that enormously. I spend a huge amount of time scanning through very substantial amounts of boards, selecting those which look good enough, and stacking those which are not back up to be rebanded and stored again. At the end of the day, I will re-check those which have been chosen, keeping what is very good. This selected timber is then delivered to me, where it's worked from that point. Nothing whatsoever is done overseas, it all happens here in the UK.

The whole process of timber selection is laborious and difficult. It can also be very frustrating when a great deal of time is spent, only to find very limited amounts of timber which is remotely good enough. It really is a very variable process and cannot be guaranteed to yield great shafts. As Dave says, the volumes that can be bought by Asain producers is incredible. They have the massive advantage of cheap labour, which makes up a significant part of the cost of any custom built cue. From what I understand of some operations in the far east, a great deal of timber is sourced green (wet) and is then dried in house in their own kilning facilities. This will reduce the cost of the timber even further, and, would also allow for a very selective process.

Small sole producers like myself, Dave and some others just cannot buy the sort of volume of timber we would have to buy in order to use nothing but the most incredible quality shafts available. This is why there is a premium on the use of such shafts, and is exactly what you are paying for when buying a Parris Ultimate, an Osborne black plate etc. The premium price is for the use of the best materials available at that moment in time, along with the ability to choose every last detail of the product being made. It's not difficult to see why it's like it is, but, prices are also set as close as possible to what the given market will bear. In my view, the prices of those mentioned above are pushing that limit in some cases, but it seems that there are plenty who will pay well above the figures demanded by these makers.

[Down the rail]

Yet another quality post from TW, someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

[calin]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOHN-PARRI...item46113fc115