Wooden Boxed set of real IVORY BILLIARD SET

[Geoff Large]

A hard wood boxed set of real PRE 1947 Real Ivory Billiard balls , NOW SOLD --- NOW SOLD ----NOW SOLD


Geoff

[ADR147]

price a bit rich but would do £150 on ebay no problem.

[DandyA]

off subject a bit but any info/idea why it's illegal to recarve them?

I'm not sure it is ROLO ... here's Wikipedia's take on the matter ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory

[gby4]

This is a bit off topic too, but I voder if there are any Mammoth Ivory Billiard balls available nowadays? It would be nice to have something so old

[Geoff Large]

Price on good condition ivory balls are £50 each , price for a collectable billiard set box is £50 so price of £200 is correct . i have a billiard set without box for £150 .
as for why recarving is now not allowed , I read it somewher on the internet , that tusks cannot be sold no matter how old they are , ivory in its original form cannot be recarved , Ebay is banning all Ivory goods as from Jan 1st 2009 and for the remaining months of 2008 all ivory has to have an acompanied letter of age relation by a qualified valuer of the antique trade . organisations such as CITES and WWF moniter most sales on Ebay very closely , a Barber retail supply was fined a very large amount for selling reworked Ivory shaving brushes ,
I do know being in the Billiard trade for over 33 years as a table fitter that ivory balls have been sold for the pupose of reworking into bagpipe decoritive rings and chess board sets ,in 1970s an ivory ball was fetching £5 a ball , this has risen to between £30 -£50 a ball depending on size and condition .
I have a problem with my main computer ( virus) it is in workshop this weekend and will be back on monday , for the two people who have emailed me regarding photo's I will get them to you after the weekend , as this lap top of my daughters is not realy good at downloading pictures .

Geoff

[ADR147]

i sold a set recently in good order without a box for £75. a full set of snooker balls would bring in some money though. by your valuation i have just sent trevor £100 to make me cue badges! what cues do you have for sale?

[Geoff Large]

If you where happy with youre valuation of £75 then I would say the buyer got a bargain if they where in good condition , I have seen balls fetch over £50 a ball if they have superior cross hatching and a full snooker set in excellent condition also fetch £1250 on ebay , I have also seen sellers sell for just £600 a set for snooker and recentley a set in 100% condition also for a bargain £850 with ball box , I have a boxed set of balls for sale at £200 which is my valuation based on what have been sold on ebay , as for the cues I will list when I get round to them , to the person who enquired there are no j.p mannock cues although in the past I have had many first edition j.p mannock and burroughs and watts edition j.p mannocks pass through my hands .
Ivory balls are going to get harder to find , due to people reworking them into differant objects , the future value as collectable billiard items will therefore increase .

[100-uper]

I would be interested to know what sort of box contains your ivory "snooker" balls. As far as I am aware they were never sold as boxed sets, being invariably made up of Pool and Pyramid sets and usually housed in "games compendium" boxes, which also made provision for billiard balls.

[Geoff Large]

It is a purpose made old billiard set box in solid hardwood prob mahogany although the grain loooks like oak or ash it has billiard cloth as a lining in the three compartments , they are a matched Billiard set , I have a padmore Sales catalogue circa approx 1930s with Ivory balls still listed at 48 shillings per set and a full snooker set at £5-10 shillings , also in the catologue there is a service for restaining and adjusting Ivory balls at 4/6p per billiard set or 1 shilling a ball for a snooker set .
For other referance a Tom newman cue at 21 shilling .
Walter lindrum cue at 25 shilling / Clark Mchonachy cue at 30 shilling / Joe davies cue at 30 shilling .
As far as never being sold in Boxed sets , i have seen many Boxed sets sold on ebay , some with very fancy wood boxes , with round cue badge name plates on the lid . Have a look on Hamilton Billiards web site look for antique acessories and you will find one on there .
I have approx 70 cue badges brand new in a box which was thrown out when Elston and Hopkin moved premises , they are J.S. Hopkin hyson Green . Nottingham , and are brand new never fitted to cues , these date to pre 1938 as Elston and hopkin algimated in 1938 . Most cues that Elston or Hopkin sold where made by burroughs and watts or Peredon , all with a hole recess for these plates to be fitted . so you could get a J.P mannock design supplied by burroughs and watts ,without the mother of pearl inlay badge but a Elston and hopkin badge in its place , the same cue but just not the same badge , now these are even rarer than a mannock cue . Ive only seen one in a Derby British legion club .

[100-uper]

I have a padmore Sales catalogue circa approx 1930s with Ivory balls still listed at 48 shillings per set and a full snooker set at £5-10 shillings.

You misunderstand my question. I am aware that the triangular carrying cases for snooker sets have been around since about 1910 and were still popular in the 1950s, but they would be sold as separate items and would contain snooker sets made from composition balls. My question related to the actual supply of ivory snooker sets, not subsequent storage. I am looking for something like the attached photo.

If you check the prices from your Padmore catalogue you will see that they are offering 3 billiard balls for £2-8s and 22 snooker balls for £5-10s. Clearly the snooker balls are composition, and by this date there would have been no possibility of obtaining anything else.

To get an ivory snooker set (all new balls) I believe that you would be looking at a narrow window between 1900 and 1905 when ivory was sufficiently affordable and the game was becoming reasonably popular. Co-incidental with these dates, important championship snooker matches began to be played which always used composition balls. We see from the 1920s when Crystalate was introduced for the Amateur Billiard Championship, public opinion quickly followed the official lead, which is why I would suggest these dates for an original ivory set. However, I would suggest that the chances of any original set still being around today is virtually nil, although this would not necessarily diminish the value.

I am just curious to see if I can track down a bit more knowledge on the subject.

[Geoff Large]

I have seen a sales reciept for a NEW set of ivory Snooker balls and the date was 1926 from Burroughs and Watts . this was in a private house where we where working on the table and there where every burroughs and watts catalogue for about 40 years on a side table , in one was the sales reciept .
The padmore catalogue clearly states Ivory billiard ball set of three at 48/- and full set of Ivory snooker at £5-10/- , on the next page it has crystalate billiard set at £1 - 15/- and snooker set at £8 - 16/- (although an hand written adjustment with new price of £10 per set is in the booklet ) these prices for the new Snooker crystalate balls being coniserably more than Ivory ? , no wonder then it took a few years for clubs and private people to buy the dearer new balls . so youre window of 1900 to 1905 seems a little too early , I would say you could still pick up a few old stock new or reconditioned ivory balls in the 1930s .
Also in the ivory prices you could buy a Superior set of Ivory billiard Balls for 95 shillings, 2 and 1/8 balls where also available . this allowed for adjustment down to 2 and 1/16th at a later date .

[100-uper]

Further investigation reveals a possible answer for the odd pricing of composition and ivory in the Padmore catalogue.

I have attached a page from an Ashcroft catalogue from the early 1930s, which shows no less than six grades of ivory snooker sets, plus two grades of "second-hand ivory, slightly undersized" The cheapest set (22 balls) is £6-12-0 and the "first quality" £33-0-0. I suppose that as ivory was going out of favour the necessary reworking would result in more and more balls which were mis-matched by weight and undersized. I hadn't quite realized just how dramatically this would effect the price though.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the lead.

[Geoff Large]

For those who think it is ok to sell ivory without the Certification have a look at this seller on Ebay , item number 230305319223 .
It is now ilegal to sell without the Certificate of age . and this seller is clued up as he knows about Rewroking the ivory is not allowed under CITES .

Also on there is another set without the Certification , advertised as just Victorian , but plain to see they are Ivory . item number 310096576620 a very good set with good cross hatching boxed as burroughs and watts .

[Geoff Large]

ROLO , I see that last date on those Regulations was in 2007 .
I do not think the law was out then , as Ive said I read it somewhere on the PC recently and wondered why Ivory sales had dried up on Ebay , but until now could not find it , until I was accused of not knowing what I was on about .
It was a shock to me that Ivory could not be recarved from its original form , as I have supplied hundreds of balls to people who recarve them prob cloise to over a thousand in 33 years as a Billiard fitter , so you see why I state only collectors of billiard antiques is the prefered method of sale . I would like to stay inside the law as I think its a min £5000 fine for stepping out of it .

For all people who use antique ivory to repair old score baords / make ferruls/ cue badges etc , THINK AGAIN read the quote from link below , google it .

Look on Ebay Reviews and Guides
Subject
Identifying Antique Ivory facts and Regulations

According to UK and EU laws in conjunction with CITES

QUOTE

A common Misconjunction here lies with people believing that old IVORY can be reworked , IT CANT!!! If you attempt to carve a piece of Ivory , even if you knew it was 100 years old , you would be breaking the law exactley the same as someone carving a modern tusk .

Google
ebay.co.uk/identifying-Antique-ivory

Author argento-glitter

As for experts being just an Estate agent , I prob agree with you to a point , for example an antique dealer who give's a certificate for the billiard ball could have less experience than my 33 years handling them . but would prob have sold enough ivory products in his years in the antique trade to qualify , the law in the UK states you must have one of these certificates or letter of authenticity , and be a member of one of two organisations of antique valuers . that part I disagree with , I know I am qualified to age Billiard / pool and snooker bagatelle balls .
I qualify as a Valuer because of the amount of Antique billiard tables and cues scoreboards / cue racks I have bought and sold for the Firms I have worked for , Ive books on leg designs , for tables and there are tell tale parts on a table that age it , for Example did you know most George Wright tables can be dated to almost the exact year by the number of medals awarded as printed on the Ivory badge on the cushion name plate . or that Riley started to discontiue buttons on cushions for slide in panels around 1913 /1915 .
The rules you quote from DEFRA are for export and Import and must be approved by certification from them . for sales within the UK an antique valuer will suffice to be within the LAW.

Geoff

[bonoman1970]

how can you sleep at night knowing that the elephants have suffered a nightmarish death for the slight joy of your nursery cannons?
:snooker: