Ferrules and Throw and Spin

[Terry Davidson]

If you're cueing across the ball on power shots, shouldn't h you be working in cueing as well as investing in titanium/LM?

Where did you get the idea I wasn't working on that? This is the reason I play like crap on the very slow club tables we play our matches on. The solution is a longer backswing so my acceleration isn't as abrupt. One of my problems is my Precision cloth is as fast as the TV tables so in practice I don't have to use a lot of power for most shots so I'm going to change to a 6811 shortly and let it get very dirty and not block and iron it to duplicate the club conditions. I know I'll soon get peed off at that so I'll probably b e ironing every day but I should stick with it.

But why should I not try and experiment with other solutions which might help, even if just a little. I wish I could take 50yrs off my age, develop a consistently long and straight backswing along with a defined rear pause but these things are impossible with the 50yrs and difficult with the longer backswing and rear pause, which I've been trying to get natural for awhile now.

Sometimes it pays to think out of the box once in awhile, no?

[Master Blaster]

Where did you get the idea I wasn't working on that? This is the reason I play like crap on the very slow club tables we play our matches on. The solution is a longer backswing so my acceleration isn't as abrupt. One of my problems is my Precision cloth is as fast as the TV tables so in practice I don't have to use a lot of power for most shots so I'm going to change to a 6811 shortly and let it get very dirty and not block and iron it to duplicate the club conditions. I know I'll soon get peed off at that so I'll probably b e ironing every day but I should stick with it.

But why should I not try and experiment with other solutions which might help, even if just a little. I wish I could take 50yrs off my age, develop a consistently long and straight backswing along with a defined rear pause but these things are impossible with the 50yrs and difficult with the longer backswing and rear pause, which I've been trying to get natural for awhile now.

Sometimes it pays to think out of the box once in awhile, no?

Fair play Terry, I thought you younger for some reason, must be your good looks. Yeah, if a cue can help, I suppose so. But remember Ebdon's Dufferin in all this.

The 6811 T is a nice cloth. I BBI it before I play and it's got plenty of pace and you can also let it become slow quite quickly, after just a few days play. If you can heat it, it will play nearly as quick as your HP but it won't be as precise because WoE can never be as good as Merino de facto.

[sanman]

I read this thread and shake my head. This issue of throw comes up so often and yet the same questions and answers get thrown back and forth. My take on this issue. Yes there is a theory that having a lighter ferrule and end mass will reduce throw. MY retort to this is WHERE IS THE PROOf?? Yes there are theories and lots of literature published regarding throw but without controlled experiments to verify such theories they remain theories. Is this literature peer reviewed and if so where is the experimental data to verify such results. I work in an engineering enviroment and I have seen first hand the horrendous results of isolated thoeries being accepted as gospel and when applied on the plants have drastic results in terms of performance other that what would have been expected from said theories. I have many cues and frankly I cannot verify to any great certainty that any theory(shaft flex, end mass ect) results in less throw or not. I have noticed that a well chalked cue throws a hell of a lot less than an unchalked cue eh??f

[Ramon]

T

I read this thread and shake my head. This issue of throw comes up so often and yet the same questions and answers get thrown back and forth. My take on this issue. Yes there is a theory that having a lighter ferrule and end mass will reduce throw. MY retort to this is WHERE IS THE PROOf?? Yes there are theories and lots of literature published regarding throw but without controlled experiments to verify such theories they remain theories. Is this literature peer reviewed and if so where is the experimental data to verify such results. I work in an engineering enviroment and I have seen first hand the horrendous results of isolated thoeries being accepted as gospel and when applied on the plants have drastic results in terms of performance other that what would have been expected from said theories. I have many cues and frankly I cannot verify to any great certainty that any theory(shaft flex, end mass ect) results in less throw or not. I have noticed that a well chalked cue throws a hell of a lot less than an unchalked cue eh??f

Good post !! However , I think each cue has deflection !!! but ultimately it is the technique of the player who makes the result !! The main thing is , what suits ur game and what works for u as a individual (and NOT what works for a pro) !!

[sanman]

Yes Ramon. Each cue would have deflection, however I believe that there is no direct correlation between the end mass ferrule density and deflection. I do believe that the tip and the chalking of the cue has a far greater effect on deflecting and that I can prove very simply and very easily

T

Good post !! However , I think each cue has deflection !!! but ultimately it is the technique of the player who makes the result !! The main thing is , what suits ur game and what works for u as a individual (and NOT what works for a pro) !!

[Master Blaster]

Theres been plenty of discussion about ferrules and tips and tip mass over the years.
There is also lots of information and testing done on youtube and websites like http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...t.html#endmass
or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4r0NSsxqo
Google 'cue ball squirt and end mass' and plenty will come up.
I personally play with a pair shaft and titanium ferrule, but the main reason for using titanium was that the wall thicknes of titanium can be very thin when compared to brass and the weight is about 25% of brass. A thinner ferrule means you can have a larger wood tenon so more wood to tip contact which to me is important when playing with an 8mm tip.
Whether the throw is less using titanium I don't know as I've never used brass on this cue.

Sanman, you need to read the above two articles. I don't think they're peer reviewed but let's face it, is a journal going to be that interested in throw from a snooker cue? Of course, if you don't agree with Dr. Dave, you can always do your own research and publish it, that's the spirit of the philosophy of science. But until I see something better, I'm going to have to agree with his research and not the opinions of someone who thinks it is an issue or someone who doesn't think it's an issue. It is an issue and Dr. Dave has approximated how much of an issue.

[sanman]

YOU ARE INCLINED TO GO WITH WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BELIEVE MASTER BLASTER BUT THE SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATER IS THAT THIS IS JUST THEORY, WITHOUT THE DATA FROM EXPERIMENTS . i HAVE READ THE ARTICLES YOU HAVE MENTIONED, BUT WITHOUT THE DATA FROM EXPERIMENTS ACHIEVE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT I CANNOT ACCEPT THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED. THERE ARE COUNTLESS ISOLATED UNSUBSTANTIATED ARTICLES THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED AND THE USE ON ONE SUCH ARTICLE COST THE COMPANY I WORK FOR IN EXCESS OF A MILLION POUNDS. NEEDLESS TO SAY I AM SCEPTICAL AT BEST. IN GOD I TRUST ELSE SHOW ME THE DATA AND HOW IT WAS OBTAINED OTHERWISE I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE ABOVE POINT.

[Ramon]

Yes Ramon. Each cue would have deflection, however I believe that there is no direct correlation between the end mass ferrule density and deflection. I do believe that the tip and the chalking of the cue has a far greater effect on deflecting and that I can prove very simply and very easily

Agree !!! deflection is caused by the shaft, and poor technique of the player, Not the ferrul !!! A goog tip on the cue is also important !!!

[Master Blaster]

YOU ARE INCLINED TO GO WITH WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BELIEVE MASTER BLASTER BUT THE SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATER IS THAT THIS IS JUST THEORY, WITHOUT THE DATA FROM EXPERIMENTS . i HAVE READ THE ARTICLES YOU HAVE MENTIONED, BUT WITHOUT THE DATA FROM EXPERIMENTS ACHIEVE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT I CANNOT ACCEPT THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED. THERE ARE COUNTLESS ISOLATED UNSUBSTANTIATED ARTICLES THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED AND THE USE ON ONE SUCH ARTICLE COST THE COMPANY I WORK FOR IN EXCESS OF A MILLION POUNDS. NEEDLESS TO SAY I AM SCEPTICAL AT BEST. IN GOD I TRUST ELSE SHOW ME THE DATA AND HOW IT WAS OBTAINED OTHERWISE I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE ABOVE POINT.

There is no such thing as a purely controlled environment, quantum mechanics proves this point. As for Data, he has listed deflection values so to say there is no data is wrong. It may not be the cleanest or most accurate data. All you really have is an opinion because you and many others (please take no offence) haven't done any kind of experiment. Until you do, I'd rather go with Dr. Dave because at least he conducted some tests. The general principal of science is to not accept hearsay (as you point out) but this chap has at least conducted some rudimentary tests. These tests are borne out by the experience of players across the globe. Throw is real and it is variable according to wood, ferrule and tip. We all know this. Most of us have tried shots with no ferrule, we know the difference, or with plastic instead of brass, we know the difference. We have not done tests and collated data but we know different materials have different mechanical properties and different strengths. This is fact borne out of experience. Did up some counter research or conduct your own experiments; that is the discourse of science.

Regards, MB.

[sanman]

Mate I really dont want to labour a point but a controlled enviroment that I am referring to is the experimental environment and not on the subnuclear level. Juts to make you understand the effects of throw, the next time you decide to change a tip, before you do try a few drops of oil on the tip that you are going to replace before you replace it. Try to hit a few shots with that cue......................Thats all the experimentation you need to do to understand what truely affects throw the most.

There is no such thing as a purely controlled environment, quantum mechanics proves this point. As for Data, he has listed deflection values so to say there is no data is wrong. It may not be the cleanest or most accurate data. All you really have is an opinion because you and many others (please take no offence) haven't done any kind of experiment. Until you do, I'd rather go with Dr. Dave because at least he conducted some tests. The general principal of science is to not accept hearsay (as you point out) but this chap has at least conducted some rudimentary tests. These tests are borne out by the experience of players across the globe. Throw is real and it is variable according to wood, ferrule and tip. We all know this. Most of us have tried shots with no ferrule, we know the difference, or with plastic instead of brass, we know the difference. We have not done tests and collated data but we know different materials have different mechanical properties and different strengths. This is fact borne out of experience. Did up some counter research or conduct your own experiments; that is the discourse of science.

Regards, MB.

[Master Blaster]

Mate I really dont want to labour a point but a controlled enviroment that I am referring to is the experimental environment and not on the subnuclear level. Juts to make you understand the effects of throw, the next time you decide to change a tip, before you do try a few drops of oil on the tip that you are going to replace before you replace it. Try to hit a few shots with that cue......................Thats all the experimentation you need to do to understand what truely affects throw the most.

Are you suggesting that chalk causes throw? I don't understand the reason for oil, unless it's to initiate an opposite to grip? What's the reason?

[Terry Davidson]

I'll try not to labour this point but I don't think there is a lot of good thinking going on here.

My first point is if you tried 10 cues using intentional side you will get different throw from every one of them so therefore SOME CUES WILL THROW LESS THAN OTHERS (using caps to shout at sanman in return). If a player has a pure stroke and consistently hits the centre of the cueball when trying to then that player doesn't have to worry about the throw from a particular cue, all he has to do is use the cue and get used to it.

This discussion if more for those players who impart UNINTENTIONAL SIDE which I believe is most of us playing with the possible exception of the best pros. If there are some properties a cue has which makes it impart less throw than another cue what would they be? Studies have proven shaft flex, end weight, tip hardness and weight of the cue coupled with amount of acceleration control throw (although acceleration can be removed from the equation).

Would it not be to the player's advantage to learn or discover what aspects in a cue reduce throw so the player gets less of a throw effect when he's using a cue which has these 'less throw' properties? I think the answer is a resounding YES and in fact Acuerate cues has built a marketing scheme based on this (although I believe they have some aspects wrong).

I am going to put my money where my mouth is and get a laminated cue with a medium shaft flex and a thin and not high titanium ferrule and see if I can determine how much throw this cue has in comparison to a very stiff and heavy 21oz cue I have here. I know for a FACT my MW cue with Blackspin ferrule and a medium flex does throw less than a comparable cue with a thick brass ferrule.

I also know for a FACT when I changed from a brass to fiber ferrule on my old Parris cue I did get reduced throw. I think shaft flex and end weight are the 2 most important considerations and players who do not have a pure delivery should consider this when purchasing a cue (I do NOT recommend
Acuerate as I think their shafts are too stiff).

[sanman]

Are you suggesting that chalk causes throw? I don't understand the reason for oil, unless it's to initiate an opposite to grip? What's the reason?

Actually the opposite. Chalk helps reduce throw substantially. U would not b able to play to much of a standard with out chalk.

[eaoin11]

Sanman, you would know better than most just how difficult it would be to do a controlled experiment such as this one properly. You couldn't make identical cues for each variable being investigated, so you would need a lot of replication to get statistically significant results. You might convince the bigger manufacturers to sponsor something like this but for promotional purposes it would be overkill. Perhaps you could find a journal to publish it if it was done properly, but I imagine that it would be difficult to find a peer-reviewed journal willing to publish it because they want to publish research that will be cited by other researchers. That's how their journal gets promoted.

I personally think that in the absence of hard data (for or against) it's reasonable to give some credit to experienced players like Terry. Here in Brisbane we have a large community of (UK style) pool players and more than half of them have been using nylon ferrules for more than 10 years and most of them say that they wouldn't go back to brass. Most of the Queensland state team and quite a few Australian reps use them. Even Mark Robertson (Neil's brother) is using a pool cue with a black ferrule, and he was very close to qualifying for the world snooker tour via cue school. Quite a few of these guys play snooker as well (like myself) but they often use brass ferrules for snooker because the nylon doesn't hold up over time with the heavier snooker cue ball. The cue ball for UK pool is much smaller and lighter.

I was more traditional and resisted the trend for years but changed very recently when I found a cue that has incredible feel and very little throw. I had fairly good positional play before but now when I'm cannoning the white into another ball after the pot I very rarely miss that cannon. But I was far from convinced at the start. When I first bought it off ebay I didn't realise that it had a black fibre ferrule (it's an old Barracuda two-piece), and it had a much bigger butt than I like. But after a while I loved being able to cue straight through the white with side and with the cue also having great balance it just turned out to be a beautiful cue to play pool with.

So I think it's wrong to claim that everything is a placebo and to disregard experience and intuition. I seriously doubt that anyone could master this game without developing some sensitivity to these things.

[Byrom]

Not an expert but had a few cues to have a say - here are my thoughts

Throw is caused by various things - mainly the taper of the shaft and stiffness I would guess?? I don't see it as a bad thing really as a player gets used to a certain feel of a cue and the throw of his cue over time.

I also had a few cues that threw according to what tip I put on - the ferrule will be the same concept too as the brass ferrule I had on a cue was replaced by a stainless steel one once and it stiffens up the cue bit into the wood a bit more and I hated it but had a new tip on so that might have contributed. Maybe I think there is something in it. thickness of the ferrule shock absorbency properties dunno really?

Size of tip flex of the cue shaft weight and balance are all things that contribute to the feel and throw. Not really thought chalk was an issue to anything other than grip but might be wrong - I prefer softer chalk that holds to the tip better - never thought about it in terms of throw before.

If it works for you and you think it does its not a bad thing even if it is nonsense anyway.

I have a certain feel in mind for a cue I prefer and do try and get close when buying or altering a cue but end of the day I think it is up to the player to get used to each cue rather than the cues fault for not being right - not a fan of the black ferrule because of the colour more than anything - thought it might distract - never used one though - I guess you forget it after a while?