Are We Being Cheated?

[the lone wolf]

Just wondering.

The majority of one piece cues now being made are not full shaft cues.

The full shaft is now considered to be high end and costs a premium.

Cue Creator, for example - long declared that their cues are not full shafts and many were critical because of their claim that cue were one piece when in fact they were doweled together.

So many cues are now being made this way and being sold as one piece cues when in fact they are two piece cues, made to look one piece - by covering the joint with handmade splices.

So the question is simple.

Are we being cheated?

[Griff1]

I guess it depends on if you know this before purchasing? It's a matter of semantics to an extent, as ultimately, even a traditional 1 piece handmade cue has at least 5 seperate pieces of wood, or 2 if machine spliced.

[cueman]

It's a murky area for sure and this practice is pretty widespread in Asia where the majority of cues are now made. For years as they were building up their reputation, they led us to believe that their 1pc cues were just that, they clearly marketed them that way, aided by resellers who also failed to point this out on their description.

It's only until fairly recently that we now see them moving to FS (full shaft) further marketing the enhanced quality.and benefits over their other 1pc cues yet still producing so called ultimate cues that use a dowel and butted together.

The premium cost of a FS is also admittance to what many British cue makers, over the past few years, have struggled.to source quality boards to make a 1pc cues from. Yet the Asian cue makers were happy to use the pretence that they had better quality and abundance of ash/maple and exotic woods and were able to produce so called better quality 1pc cues, when all along they were cutting corners.

So when you look now at the pricing, some of these FS cues are now going for more than UK based cue makers, I think I'd rather spend my hard earned on cues made here, but even then you need to do your research on that, though that also adds to the murky nature of the cue making business.

I sense this is another thaigate in the making.

[the lone wolf]

It is a murky area in the business for sure, which is why I'm compelled to speak out.

I've been purchasing both shop cues and ordering custom cues to find a cue I really enjoy playing with and suits my personal requirements.

Without mentioning brands / makers. I am now awaiting 3 custom cues.
One cue is a full shaft - knowing this as I have physically picked the shafted out myself in the makers workshop.

A Second cue I am told is a full shaft but have no evidence whatsoever that it will be.

The third cue ordered recently, the maker has been completely upfront and transparent explaining that the shaft is just short of being full length and will therefore have a dowelled extension. Which I agreed to go ahead with the order.

Ultimately my personal satisfaction will come from the suitability of each or all of the cues ordered.

EXPERTS
Some argue that you can't tell the difference between a full shaft cue and a dowelled cue when it come to playability.

Personally I disagree with this. Providing the cueist is knowledgeable enough about hit, feel and other attributes of the cue, then I believe it is possible to know the difference.

How?

A single piece of wood is just that. Two pieces of wood, no matter how they are bonded together will always be two separate entities, bonded together.

The only maker I'm choosing to mention is Cue Creator for the reason stated in the OP.

So why does one brand receive much criticism to the point where the cues are now made elsewhere. When other brands do not and quite the opposite - receive critical acclaim and lorded for their quality!

I guess aesthetics is a major factor?

[Gomaomine]

Personally I disagree with this. Providing the cueist is knowledgeable enough about hit, feel and other attributes of the cue, then I believe it is possible to know the difference.

How?

A single piece of wood is just that. Two pieces of wood, no matter how they are bonded together will always be two separate entities, bonded together.

The only maker I'm choosing to mention is Cue Creator for the reason stated in the OP.

So why does one brand receive much criticism to the point where the cues are now made elsewhere. When other brands do not and quite the opposite - receive critical acclaim and lorded for their quality!

I guess aesthetics is a major factor?

You're thinking too much into this. If a cue has a full length ash/maple from tip to butt and made to 57 inches and subsequently extended to 58 inches, does this mean it's no longer a 1 piece cue because theres now 1 inch of ash/maple not going through to the end?

And on your second point about feeling the difference between playability in full shaft vs a dowelled shaft - I would challenge anyone to try out 10 cues from lets say Ton Praram which are all one piece but 5 FS and 5 Dowelled shafts and play with them and pick out which ones are Dowelled and not.

At the end of the day, you're going to have a product in your hand and its either going to play well, average or crap.

[the lone wolf]

You're thinking too much into this. If a cue has a full length ash/maple from tip to butt and made to 57 inches and subsequently extended to 58 inches, does this mean it's no longer a 1 piece cue because theres now 1 inch of ash/maple not going through to the end?

And on your second point about feeling the difference between playability in full shaft vs a dowelled shaft - I would challenge anyone to try out 10 cues from lets say Ton Praram which are all one piece but 5 FS and 5 Dowelled shafts and play with them and pick out which ones are Dowelled and not.

At the end of the day, you're going to have a product in your hand and its either going to play well, average or crap.

Possibly.
However most dowelled shafts are about 44-52 in length with a minimum dowelled joint of at least 6"

I'm being conservative and fair to the makers.

As for a 10 piece test. I'd be quite happy to saddle up, on two conditions.

1. Time frame. One can go into a shop with a feeling of heightened adrenaline and be happy and convinced the cue is a one piece.

My condition is that I can use the cue in a quiet intimate space and also play a match where my senses are heightened to performance rather than playability.

This would take time.

2. Expense. The cues are then cut through the middle, down the length for visual proof.

I'm up for that challenge. But there is no way I can afford 10-15K worth of retail cues off the shelf. It would take a brand with big balls to front what would be roughly 2+3k worth of materials and labour.

ANY BRAND UP FOR THAT CHALLENGE?

PS
I am a product designer and developer. So yes, I over think

[cueman]

would challenge anyone to try out 10 cues from lets say Ton Praram which are all one piece but 5 FS and 5 Dowelled shafts and play with them and pick out which ones are Dowelled and not.

I think some players would. In fact I don't even need to play with it, I look at the cues that say greenbaize have in from TP. One thing I've noticed is, many of these FS shafts are poorly balanced, I've seen some at 15" and many at 16-16.5", they are going to feel really light on bridge hand. Basically the density and quality of these full shafted pieces of ash isn't really a benefit at all, certainly not worth the premium price being asked.

Most of the dowelled cues at least tend to be balanced at around 17-17.5" sweet spot which usually what players prefer.

[the lone wolf]

I think some players would. In fact I don't even need to play with it, I look at the cues that say greenbaize have in from TP. One thing I've noticed is, many of these FS shafts are poorly balanced, I've seen some at 15" and many at 16-16.5", they are going to feel really light on bridge hand. Basically the density and quality of these full shafted pieces of ash isn't really a benefit at all, certainly not worth the premium price being asked.

Most of the dowelled cues at least tend to be balanced at around 17-17.5" sweet spot which usually what players prefer.

Interesting!
This opens things up further. As it is not my intention to bad name or criticise the quality of any brand.

More, for us to come to an understanding and appreciation that how a cue is made is irrelevant up to a point. But more to accept how the cue has been made and what the cue actually is?

1. True one piece cue

2. Dowelled two piece cue made to look one piece

There is even a case that the brands / makers have got it wrong and in fact the most expensive cue should be the dowelled as it potentially offers better qualities mentioned above..?

[robbo mcs]

Looking at it another way the advertising is not necessary that misleading. A two piece cue, is a cue that comes in two pieces, and can be dismantled for easier transport. A one piece does not dismantle and needs to be transported in one piece. So the description can refer to the finished product, rather than the construction technique? Either way of describing it is valid I guess.

In the older days two piece cues, as described above, were often made from one single piece of wood, which was split into a joint. Some pros even had their one pieces split, Steve Davis from memory?

[the lone wolf]

Looking at it another way the advertising is not necessary that misleading. A two piece cue, is a cue that comes in two pieces, and can be dismantled for easier transport. A one piece does not dismantle and needs to be transported in one piece. So the description can refer to the finished product, rather than the construction technique? Either way of describing it is valid I guess.

In the older days two piece cues, as described above, were often made from one single piece of wood, which was split into a joint. Some pros even had their one pieces split, Steve Davis from memory?

Very good point.
I always thought the a custom made to order 2 piece cue was a one piece that had been cut to suit.

Obviously this isn't the case.

[itsnoteasy]

If the last six inches is added most of that will be removed for the main splices anyway, it's planed down to roughly a 10mm square (I think, hopefully a cue maker will give their opinion) around six inches up it will only be a few mill thicker so I doubt anyone could tell the difference in feel as most of what you are holding is splice not shaft.

[strobbekoen]

In my opinion it is misleading at the very least if a 1pc is made from two separate pieces. It should be stated in the description then how it is made, as not all cuemakers do this. and all this full shaft nonsense to ask yet another premium is even more ridiculous in my opinion.

[the lone wolf]

In my opinion it is misleading at the very least if a 1pc is made from two separate pieces. It should be stated in the description then how it is made, as not all cuemakers do this. and all this full shaft nonsense to ask yet another premium is even more ridiculous in my opinion.

Totally agree
Paying a premium (as long as the product holds its integrity) is perfectly fine for the marketplace is fine.

It's the reason why a Rolls Royce is a Rolls Royce and not an automobile with 4 wheels...

And it's the reason why the cue makers I've ordered cues from have been researched thoroughly. It doesn't guarantee how the product will play but I do know how the product has been made.

Except for one of the cues, which I got at a reduced price which made the deal a win win scenario.

[the lone wolf]

If the last six inches is added most of that will be removed for the main splices anyway, it's planed down to roughly a 10mm square (I think, hopefully a cue maker will give their opinion) around six inches up it will only be a few mill thicker so I doubt anyone could tell the difference in feel as most of what you are holding is splice not shaft.

I believe it is possible to know the difference. There are characteristics to learn and be aware of.

But ultimately the proof can only be confirmed by cutting down the cue

[strobbekoen]

I would like to add, as a general observation, that all these 'options' didn't exist before. selected shaft, premium shaft, ultimate shaft, and now its full shaft ? It's all marketing to differentiate and legitimize upcharges. you see the same thing in other products such as guitars, 'private stock', 'family reserve' lol.
Now, ironically, the first thai cue maker, master cues, is now considered inferior to the 'boutique brands' churning out 1000s of 'ultimates'. In reality, they're all pretty much the same. It's a bit sad for ukrit at master cues, never really changed the way he does things, and is now being out-marketed. just saying.