Are We Being Cheated?

[the lone wolf]

I would like to add, as a general observation, that all these 'options' didn't exist before. selected shaft, premium shaft, ultimate shaft, and now its full shaft ? It's all marketing to differentiate and legitimize upcharges. you see the same thing in other products such as guitars, 'private stock', 'family reserve' lol.
Now, ironically, the first thai cue maker, master cues, is now considered inferior to the 'boutique brands' churning out 1000s of 'ultimates'. In reality, they're all pretty much the same. It's a bit sad for ukrit at master cues, never really changed the way he does things, and is now being out-marketed. just saying.

Absolutely!
I've had brief dialogue with Ukrit at master cues as I intend to have something made by them as well, for the reasons you clearly stated.

Up-charging (if there's sick as thing) has become the new process in product develop. When it's actually lazy marketing to access more from the consumer!

[itsnoteasy]

I would like to add, as a general observation, that all these 'options' didn't exist before. selected shaft, premium shaft, ultimate shaft, and now its full shaft ? It's all marketing to differentiate and legitimize upcharges. you see the same thing in other products such as guitars, 'private stock', 'family reserve' lol.
Now, ironically, the first thai cue maker, master cues, is now considered inferior to the 'boutique brands' churning out 1000s of 'ultimates'. In reality, they're all pretty much the same. It's a bit sad for ukrit at master cues, never really changed the way he does things, and is now being out-marketed. just saying.

It's weird how Master Cues have always flown under the radar a bit, I've seen a few players say for the money, they're up there with anything that's coming out of Thailand.

[the lone wolf]

It's weird how Master Cues have always flown under the radar a bit, I've seen a few players say for the money, they're up there with anything that's coming out of Thailand.

Master cues make excellent cues and for me created a very unique butt taper.

[But I'm new to the cue hunting market as my personal player of 20 years + had to go for personal reasons.]

Also, Master Cues seem to have their pricing right for batch manufactured products.

However, I do think their standard cues a re a little too heavy for me. Had a beautiful maple master cue, but it really felt like I was lifting weights when playing with it.

[strobbekoen]

I always keep my eye out on used/old ones. Got a whirlwind master cue in maple for 200 quid, I believe it was a short-lived series produced, as the real whirlwind went to court for using the name. Have another one in the same design (connoisseur), also for 200 quid. Fantastic cues, better than any of the high-priced cues i had the privilege to try.

[itsnoteasy]

Master cues make excellent cues and for me created a very unique butt taper.

[But I'm new to the cue hunting market as my personal player of 20 years + had to go for personal reasons.]

Also, Master Cues seem to have their pricing right for batch manufactured products.

However, I do think their standard cues a re a little too heavy for me. Had a beautiful maple master cue, but it really felt like I was lifting weights when playing with it.

What's their individual butt taper? Thicker, thinner, more splayed?

[the lone wolf]

What's their individual butt taper? Thicker, thinner, more splayed?

They call it Pro Butt which is slightly thinner. But I'm not saying they were the first to do this. I just know the cues made to this taper feel great in the hand...

[gg29]

its not a new thing at all, ive 3/4 split many old cues in the past and they optimised boards many a time

[Cue crafty]

Master cues make excellent cues and for me created a very unique butt taper.

[But I'm new to the cue hunting market as my personal player of 20 years + had to go for personal reasons.]

Also, Master Cues seem to have their pricing right for batch manufactured products.

However, I do think their standard cues a re a little too heavy for me. Had a beautiful maple master cue, but it really felt like I was lifting weights when playing with it.

Nice to see Stu Green with some new stock Master cues, mainly pool spec but must be helping the brand.

[the lone wolf]

Nice to see Stu Green with some new stock Master cues, mainly pool spec but must be helping the brand.

Yes. I corresponded with Stu a few weeks ago about popping up to see him and his wears.

If my custom builds prove to be unsuccessful then Green Baize will be my no.1 and last stop

[Cue crafty]

On the OP subject, it's been interesting to know about the different builds/methods. In many ways I feel lucky to have tried Thai cues no matter how they are made or described. When I started playing again in2015 after a 20 year break, getting used to TC balls was difficult with old cues I was used to using , like one piece ,16.5 / 17 Oz cues, so I appreciate personally that with some trial and error (4 cues for me) I was able to find what I was looking for. Again personally for me it was a case of too much throw, then too stiff, then just right. Each cue helped me find what I wanted by the results I found and then I luckily got what I was looking for.

Hard to put a monetary figure on what that's worth , and also think there is little point looking further once you feel you have something in terms of a cue to work with. It's time then to concentrate on your cue delivery and action and forget the rest. It's a time wasting distraction.

[the lone wolf]

On the OP subject, it's been interesting to know about the different builds/methods. In many ways I feel lucky to have tried Thai cues no matter how they are made or described. When I started playing again in2015 after a 20 year break, getting used to TC balls was difficult with old cues I was used to using , like one piece ,16.5 / 17 Oz cues, so I appreciate personally that with some trial and error (4 cues for me) I was able to find what I was looking for. Again personally for me it was a case of too much throw, then too stiff, then just right. Each cue helped me find what I wanted by the results I found and then I luckily got what I was looking for.

Hard to put a monetary figure on what that's worth , and also think there is little point looking further once you feel you have something in terms of a cue to work with. It's time then to concentrate on your cue delivery and action and forget the rest. It's a time wasting distraction.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you.
My playing cue of over twenty years was a gift for my nephew (for reasons that I won't get into now) and kept my word on that once he turned 21.

I have no regrets in doing this as it was a promise I made to myself.

In hindsight, I should have bought two cues and then presented the 2nd to him on his 18th birthday!

[vmax]

What customers must understand is that almost all legally sourced timber is grown and felled commercially to certain trade standards of length. The ash and maple used for cuemaking in the main doesn't come from wild nature but from commercially grown and tended forests. Trees are cut when they reach a certain age/size, the trunk of the tree grown to a height of around 4.8/5.1 metres, still a young tree so not of a great girth, before the branches start as that is where the knots in the wood begin. The branches above this are shredded for wood pulp and used to fuel power stations instead of coal.

So our cuemaking timber comes in roughly 4.8 m lengths (metric 16 foot), so take three lengths of 1.5 metres (metric 5 foot) for three full shaft one piece cues and you have 300mm (metric one foot) left over from that 4.8m length that has been paid for, the same if you take a 3m length (metric 10 foot) to cut two 1.5m lengths and you have a 1.8m length (metric 6 foot) left over which gives you another 1.5m length and again 300mm left over.
If a cuemaker has a supplier that has other customers that need 1.8m or 3.3m lengths (metric 11 foot) then he can sell to the cuemaker almost exactly what said cuemaker needs for full shaft one piece cues, if not then the cuemaker has offcuts that has cost him money and that is considered a loss.

A 4.8m length can be cut in half, 2 X 2.4m lengths (metric 8 foot), from that one can cut in half again for 4 X 1.2m lengths (metric 4 foot) and these lengths can be dowelled with 300mm lengths (1.2 divided by four) to make one piece cues. This way the whole of the 4.8/2.4m board can be used by a cuemaker with no offcuts going to waste, but, and this a a big but in my book, those 300mm offcuts cost very little compared to the premium charged by the likes of cuecreator for their full shaft one piece cues. What they are charging for is the extra machining needed on their cnc lathes to make a fullshaft one piece and to be honest it's an awful lot easier for them to do that than it is for me as I do it all by hand.

As for the argument that a full shaft one piece is better than a dowelled one piece or 3/4 split cue, well that's plain wrong because the shaft of the cue only flexes up to the shoulder (tip of the splices) and from tip to shoulder is where the feel of the shaft resides, past that the wood is purely the handle that you hold and can be and is made from any other kind of timber, be it spliced on or joined. A good shaft is a good shaft whether it's a full one piece or not.

These lengths are british trade standards as and when I worked in a sawmill/joinery shop from 1983 'til 2007, they are to the nearest metric equivalent of the old imperial measurements of the foot in incruements of 300mm being the imperial foot starting at 300, 600, 900, 1.2, 1.5, 1.8, 2.1, 2.4, 2.7, 3.0, 3.3, 3.6, 3.9, 4.2, 4.5, 4.8, 5.1, 5.4, 5.7, and finally 6.0m (metric 20 foot) Above 4.8 is usually for old buildings that are being renovated as the metric foot of 300mm is actually slightly shorter than a foot and thus each longer metric length gets shorter than it's imperial equivalent so that by the time one reaches 4.8m, sixteen foot is actually 4.877m, about three inches longer than the metric 16 foot.
Of course I was dealing with softwood building timber at that time but any hardwood bought in as special orders were ordered also in these lengths, I would imagine that in the US and Canada the old imperial feet and inches still apply and the rest of the world may even be fully metric and deal with lengths to the exact metre rather the the british method of 300mm incruements.

[the lone wolf]

That is some serious information vmax and thank you for sharing.

However. The sourcing and cut size of materials used is the concern of the cue maker and not the consumer.

What you have brilliantly put together still doesn't answer the question of the OP.

Nor does it answer the integrity of the cue makers who choose to sell something that is accurately incorrect.

As for cue creator. These cues (I'm lead to believe) are now mostly made by Peradon and I'm not sure how much CNC work they do on their cues. Non the less, still doesn't answer the OP

I still believe it is possible to know the difference between a doweled cue and a true one piece cue. It all depends on knowing what to look for and experience of the user. The handle section is not what I would focus on in any tests or testing I would carry out.

So are we being cheated?

[itsnoteasy]

That is some serious information vmax and thank you for sharing.

However. The sourcing and cut size of materials used is the concern of the cue maker and not the consumer.

What you have brilliantly put together still doesn't answer the question of the OP.

Nor does it answer the integrity of the cue makers who choose to sell something that is accurately incorrect.

As for cue creator. These cues (I'm lead to believe) are now mostly made by Peradon and I'm not sure how much CNC work they do on their cues. Non the less, still doesn't answer the OP

I still believe it is possible to know the difference between a doweled cue and a true one piece cue. It all depends on knowing what to look for and experience of the user. The handle section is not what I would focus on in any tests or testing I would carry out.

So are we being cheated?

I think it's up to you to say what you would focus on and how you would know the difference. It's hard to agree or disagree with you when you haven't put forward any real points.

[the lone wolf]

I think it's up to you to say what you would focus on and how you would know the difference. It's hard to agree or disagree with you when you haven't put forward any real points.

My means of testing or real points as you suggest are based on real life situations and wouldn't work here on a digital forum platform.

But to forward my case
THE FEEL OF A CUE
Simply cannot be explained in a digital platform in the same way that the feel of acceleration in a car cannot be explained on a similar digital platform.

This is a real life scenario being discussed on a digital platform.

I hope this answers your notion...

And as stated above. I'm quite happy to prove my theory but I can't afford to do so, unless a cue maker wanted to donate a few cues?