Are We Being Cheated?

[the lone wolf]

I mean, when talking about 1 pieces having a lower balance point than 3/4 cues its just not true. A full shaft or dowelled shaft can be produced to look exactly the same. and its just lead. being inserted. Im certain you could take a full shafted piece of wood, plane it down abit further than whatever distance the balance is required and then insert lead.

I understand people saying "the cue feels better as it has a full piece of wood going throughout the final product" but really, that piece of wood would've been planed down to thinly to accept the 4 splices that any perceived "better" feel "could" be negligible. The problem is "feel" cannot be measured/quantified and it could all just be a placebo in our heads.

Feel is feel.
so it is measurable and quantified by the user.

[the lone wolf]

Definately a placebo in some heads.

Yes lone pussy cat you have been conned into thinking theres a difference in the playability

nice to know these things!

[itsnoteasy]

Feel is feel.
so it is measurable and quantified by the user.

There's an argument feel is actually sound. I have seen experiments with golfers putting ear defenders on and hitting a range of balls from soft through to hard and they couldn't tell what was what as they couldn't hear the hit, could be the same with cues.

[the lone wolf]

There's an argument feel is actually sound. I have seen experiments with golfers putting ear defenders on and hitting a range of balls from soft through to hard and they couldn't tell what was what as they couldn't hear the hit, could be the same with cues.

Now we're cooking!
I'm listening brother, as sound is a massive part of understanding a piece of wood as everything in the world has its own frequency

[Gomaomine]

Feel is feel.
so it is measurable and quantified by the user.

Which is why there is no objective standard to measure "feel".

Take 2 18oz cues with different balance points - one will "feel" heavier than the other.

But you can objectively measure the cues at 18oz.

If you think you can feel a dowelled shaft vs a full piece shaft, you shouldn't have any doubt in your head about whether a cue you purchase is one or the other irrespective of what the cue maker says.
Further more, you also shouldn't have to cut through the cues to confirm your "feel".

[the lone wolf]

Which is why there is no objective standard to measure "feel".

Take 2 18oz cues with different balance points - one will "feel" heavier than the other.

But you can objectively measure the cues at 18oz.

If you think you can feel a dowelled shaft vs a full piece shaft, you shouldn't have any doubt in your head about whether a cue you purchase is one or the other irrespective of what the cue maker says.
Further more, you also shouldn't have to cut through the cues to confirm your "feel".

I agree up to a point.

Yes I agree with you on feel.

However based on what I have written before. Any test taken out wouldn't and couldn't be done in the spir of the moment and would take the right settings (tournaments, quiet environment etc... To determine any outcome).

Therefore, by the time I've worked out that a cue is or isn't what it should be based on any testing, it is too late to make a U-turn on the purchased product

Hence, again.
Are we being cheated?

If the cue maker is selling a product, it is my belief that they should be explicitly clear on what is being sold.

This is my opinion...

[Gomaomine]

I agree up to a point.

Yes I agree with you on feel.

However based on what I have written before. Any test taken out wouldn't and couldn't be done in the spir of the moment and would take the right settings (tournaments, quiet environment etc... To determine any outcome).

Therefore, by the time I've worked out that a cue is or isn't what it should be based on any testing, it is too late to make a U-turn on the purchased product

Hence, again.
Are we being cheated?

If the cue maker is selling a product, it is my belief that they should be explicitly clear on what is being sold.

This is my opinion...

This is a difficult one as the term 'cheat' could be applied to many things. I can agree there isn't a blurred line between dowelled and one piece but then there's the issue of hand made or hand planed amongst other things which this can be extended to.

Do we accept we are being cheated if a cue maker uses pre turned shafts or are using electric planers vs hand planes? Or what of so called makers like Jonny Carr who blatantly just turns his cues to size pretty much solely on a lathe?

should these be considered handmade products? To some, maybe, to others possibly not.

[the lone wolf]

This is a difficult one as the term 'cheat' could be applied to many things. I can agree there isn't a blurred line between dowelled and one piece but then there's the issue of hand made or hand planed amongst other things which this can be extended to.

Do we accept we are being cheated if a cue maker uses pre turned shafts or are using electric planers vs hand planes? Or what of so called makers like Jonny Carr who blatantly just turns his cues to size pretty much solely on a lathe?

should these be considered handmade products? To some, maybe, to others possibly not.

It's not really that difficult.
Handmade is a term to describe an artifact made by the use of hand tools. This can even include a lathe.

The choice of construction is up to the maker as his or her work should be determined by quality of outcome.

Question
Would you buy a car that has been handmade by two separate car chassis?

Compared to a car that was handmade entirely from the unique engineered parts?

Aston Martin are handmade cars. They use engineered parts alongside precision engineered power tools.

Power Tools will also speed up the construction process, which again is perfectly fine.

The term cheat in this case is being used to whether or not it is fair on the consumer to pay a high premium price for something it's clearly not, nor is it in most cases advertised as such.

If ALL cue makers were declaring their own individual construction techniques including using the dowel method, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Nor would I have a problem with how much they charge for their products - as the market or buyer dictates the price.

[Bilston Cues]

Nothing wrong in buying in cues fully made or part made but when the likes of Jonny Carr make out they are made in this country, nevermind how most are illegally raffled off well that just shows what a scum bag he is.

[Gomaomine]

I agree up to a point.

Yes I agree with you on feel.

However based on what I have written before. Any test taken out wouldn't and couldn't be done in the spir of the moment and would take the right settings (tournaments, quiet environment etc... To determine any outcome).

Therefore, by the time I've worked out that a cue is or isn't what it should be based on any testing, it is too late to make a U-turn on the purchased product

Hence, again.
Are we being cheated?

If the cue maker is selling a product, it is my belief that they should be explicitly clear on what is being sold.

This is my opinion...

I think what I am trying to refer to (although admittedly poorly) is that some aspects of any matter (in this case the construction of cues) gripe more on some people compared to others.

in your case, the "handmade" aspect is not difficult to grasp/define in the same way that I could define a 1 piece cue doesn't come in 2 pieces. The construction is not important if the end product is a single piece of cue. But to some the methods matter - for me it doesn't hence I wouldn't specifically opt for a FS over a dowelled shaft. I just let the cue maker produce the cue trusting their judgement.

[Gomaomine]

Nothing wrong in buying in cues fully made or part made but when the likes of Jonny Carr make out they are made in this country, nevermind how most are illegally raffled off well that just shows what a scum bag he is.

Can't stand the guy

[the lone wolf]

I think what I am trying to refer to (although admittedly poorly) is that some aspects of any matter (in this case the construction of cues) gripe more on some people compared to others.

in your case, the "handmade" aspect is not difficult to grasp/define in the same way that I could define a 1 piece cue doesn't come in 2 pieces. The construction is not important if the end product is a single piece of cue. But to some the methods matter - for me it doesn't hence I wouldn't specifically opt for a FS over a dowelled shaft. I just let the cue maker produce the cue trusting their judgement.

That's where we differ.
a one piece cue cannot or should not be construed in 2 or more pieces IMO

However, I can accept (conceptually) that a well made modular cue can be more accurate in its playability than a single piece of wood.

[Gomaomine]

That's where we differ.
a one piece cue cannot or should not be construed in 2 or more pieces IMO

However, I can accept (conceptually) that a well made modular cue can be more accurate in its playability than a single piece of wood.

Playing devils advocate here.

If a cue is constructed as a 1 piece full shaft at say 57 inches. Lets say the cue is subsequently sold on and then lengthened to 59 inches, given that it's been constructed/lengthened which additional pieces of wood, how should this cue classified?

[the lone wolf]

Playing devils advocate here.

If a cue is constructed as a 1 piece full shaft at say 57 inches. Lets say the cue is subsequently sold on and then lengthened to 59 inches, given that it's been constructed/lengthened which additional pieces of wood, how should this cue classified?

Modified
customised
Altered

Just a few descriptive words

[Bilston Cues]

Bottom line with this one piece/jointed scenario is when your next after a cue tell me which you want as we will do either.