1KILK joints? Whazzup?

[stan-mullin]

i hate to be a pain but i am always honest so here goes,

i loved the simplicity of the design when i got the joint and i sent it to mike wooldridige who put it in a cue for me.

the first thing you notice is that its possible to join the cue in three different places so attention must be paid when using it. the second thing i noticed is that if connected on one of the other two positions the cue was not lined up correctly so the joint clearly is not as well engineered as it should be other wise the three positions would be the same?

now the real problem, when using the cue to play snooker there was a tinny high pitched sound from the cue caused because the two face plates of brass are not being pulled together so the cue is not solid in play and however many times i undid and redid the cue i could not make the joint tight enough to cure the problem. i even tried the cue on an 8 ball pool table thinking that maybe the weight of a snooker ball was just too much for it but even for that game it was impossible to use, its a clever design and a fasinating thing to use and i am sure there are many uses for it - rest heads would be one - but for me, from the one i was sent, it does not work in a snooker cue, sorry.

Hi Andrew

I think you'll find the joint is perfectly engineered!
Before it goes into the cue the discs of the snooker cue joint are aligned. When one of the three locking positions has been chosen to match the grains and the cue is sanded, not only is joint no longer round, neither is the cue. Therefore locking the cue in either of the other two positions will make the joint look off centre.
I have been playing with the first prototype cue made by B and W for over 12 months without ever hearing any tinny sound, I am also being honest.
One of the biggest cuemakers in Europe have been using the joint since January, and have since re-ordered.
The product is being exhibited at the BCA expo in Las Vegas in June by two seperate cue companies.
I appreciate your comments, and yes the 1Klik system is used in dozens of other applications, but to say its not suitable for snooker cues, either as a main joint or for extensions is just wrong.
Ask Tony Wilshaw or Dean at B and W to make you a cue, and I can assure you it works.
And the telescopic extensions are pretty good too!

Stan

[ADR147]

i understand how it is fitted i have been in this business a while! but i can only say fitted in a cue it was not right and the cue was fine when un screwed. there is nothing pulling the faces together. i am suprised TW thinks its ok.

[stan-mullin]

i understand how it is fitted i have been in this business a while! but i can only say fitted in a cue it was not right and the cue was fine when un screwed. there is nothing pulling the faces together. i am suprised TW thinks its ok.

Hey Andrew

Relax I don't want to argue with you, I know you've been in the business a while.
Just that you said 'i noticed is that if connected on one of the other two positions the cue was not lined up correctly so the joint clearly is not as well engineered as it should be other wise the three positions would be the same?'
As the cue is not round, surely you are wrong?

Which contradicts what I understand about fitting joints to snooker cues.?

On pool or carom cues the joint collar is round so the 1Klik joint fits perfectly on all three locking positions.

Gravity generally pulls the faces together, or a natural push and twist. Its not difficult. If you cannot lock the joint correctly I suspect it has been damaged during installation, as it was faultless when it left the factory.

If you want to me to send a cue which has the joint fitted correctly, that works perfectly, then PM me. Or if you would like to fit a joint yourself I can supply, drivers (both male and female) which are required, drills and taps for the correct threads.

Stan

[totlxtc]

May i try one please for use as extention joins Stan?

Dan

[stan-mullin]

Hi Dan

Yes you can, PM your address.

I'll need to discuss fitting instructions with you, as you really need a driver to set the joint.

The telescopic extensions are also pretty good too, but I'm out of stock until aprox 10 days.

Stan

[MikeWooldridge]

Just that you said 'i noticed is that if connected on one of the other two positions the cue was not lined up correctly so the joint clearly is not as well engineered as it should be other wise the three positions would be the same?'
As the cue is not round, surely you are wrong?

actually i'll clear that one up. the cue was not perfectly round, so the faces only line up in one position.

however, that is a minor issue....

Gravity generally pulls the faces together, or a natural push and twist. Its not difficult. If you cannot lock the joint correctly I suspect it has been damaged during installation, as it was faultless when it left the factory.

the join did appear not damaged and was not damaged by me during installation.

it works exactly how it should. i.e. it can be locked at any point whether the two faces are together or not.

to make it clearer to people who have not seen it, imagine a toblerone - it has three points up the whole length. the 1klik appears round but has three slightly raised points along it's length.

essentially the join works cos the three points on the join slot into the female and when turned to one side, they meet the female part that is raised inside the join thus making contact all the way up each of the points.

this join works on friction. and friction only.

in fact, the term 1klik is slightly misleading cos the join does not click or lock into any fixed position.

the 'gravity' reference merely means if you hold the butt upright, you can drop the shaft in.

but, there is no method by which the two faces are actually 'pulled' together.

which causes a problem cos no matter how much you try to push the cue together before turning and locking the join. the faces will almost inevitably always have a slight gap, albeit fractional.

and the vibration sent down a cue will reveal this weakness in the form of a tinny or clicky sound.

i think the join is very clever and can see uses in many fields. but not in cues.

it simply fails to do the one VITAL thing a join needs to do. and that is to pull the faces of the butt and shaft together forming a very tight fit so that the cue 'feels' right and sounds right when you play a shot.

If you want to me to send a cue which has the joint fitted correctly, that works perfectly, then PM me. Or if you would like to fit a joint yourself I can supply, drivers (both male and female) which are required, drills and taps for the correct threads.

the joint was fitted correctly by me.

i don't wish to knock the join but i've tried it and didn't like it. simple as that. yes it 'joins' two parts of a cue. no, it doesn't do it right. imo.

remember stan, i championed your initial introduction of this idea cos i like to see new things. but they have to work.

even for extensions i fail to see any real advantage cos you will still get that tinny/clicky sound if the faces are not tightly pulled together.

sorry, but i have to make my opinion clear...

[noel]

sorry, but i have to make my opinion clear...

Mike... so in a nutshell..
you're saying that this join isn't as good as other new and unique, precision engineered, rapid locking vacuum join systems currently available on some cues?


=o)

Noel

[MikeWooldridge]

lol. noel. you are baaaad....

i'm merely offering my opinion and answering some points raised by stan and adr147....

[stan-mullin]

Mike

I appreciate both yours and Andrew's opinions.

Obviously I disagree, but luckily for me so do other cuemakers accross the world. 1 customer has had 3000, and has another 4000 on order, so they must work?

Changing the subject, did you get my e mail about the 1Klik telescopic extenders?

Even if you don't like the joint, I'm sure you'll like these.......

Stan

[noel]

lol. noel. you are baaaad....

i'm merely offering my opinion and answering some points raised by stan and adr147....

Yes, of course...

to make it clearer to people who have not seen it, imagine a toblerone - it has three points up the whole length. the 1klik appears round but has three slightly raised points along it's length.

essentially the join works cos the three points on the join slot into the female and when turned to one side, they meet the female part that is raised inside the join thus making contact all the way up each of the points.

this join works on friction. and friction only.

So this is like the old Mazda Wanke* Rotary shape?
And it's interface is triangular flat plate that twists into a three-point slot?
Could the plate be bevelled so that it tightens as it's twisted?
Would that improve a secure join?

(wish I could see or use one)


=o\

Noel

[RGCirencester]

Mike

I appreciate both yours and Andrew's opinions.

Obviously I disagree, but luckily for me so do other cuemakers accross the world. 1 customer has had 3000, and has another 4000 on order, so they must work?

Changing the subject, did you get my e mail about the 1Klik telescopic extenders?

Even if you don't like the joint, I'm sure you'll like these.......

Stan

Hi could you clarify something for me Stan about your extensions? I assume your extensions will be available with different joints and not just the 1klik. If this is so what exactly is different between your extension and the standard extending extension?

[stan-mullin]

Hi could you clarify something for me Stan about your extensions? I assume your extensions will be available with different joints and not just the 1klik. If this is so what exactly is different between your extension and the standard extending extension?

Just a quick reply before I go to the snooker club:

The extensions can be fitted with any joint.
There is no nut to tighten, the 1Klik locking mechanism is in the aluminium tube (male) with the female in the collar.

I'll give more detail tomorrow.

Stan

[poolqjunkie]

I have seen and tried this joint, thanks to samples sent to me from Stan.

One thing regarding ADR147's comment, I would like to point out that the shafts from a lot of American or European pool cue companies are turned by CNC and they are interchangable; while in snooker, if I understand correctly, the shafts are usually not.

I think it can be done in snooker for the shafts to be interchangable without CNC if a sanding dremel (spelling?)is used. But that is not the point of this discussion.

The point is that 9 Ball pool cues usually are quite a bit more precise when it comes to being prefectly round, and the joint being completely centered, than snooker cues. It is not saying they are better, but it is mostly due to the computer equipment used to manufacture them.

Shafts being interchangable is not an easy or cheap thing to achieve, it means that all the cross sections are of the exact same shapes and sizes, and the faces are all matching, and the joint inserts are all installed in the dead center.

For a cue sanded by hand with the joint screwed together, this usually means the section is not completely round, and the joint is not in the complete center. Therefore, the joint will only work at a particular orientation.

So, just because a joint cannot be locked in all three positions does not mean there is necessarily something "un precise" about the joint.

I believe, although I have never seen it, that this joint when used in a CNC turned pool shaft, can be locked in all three positions with no problem.

Just a minor point I want to bring out.

[jb134]

I thought about the problem with the cues not being round or the fittings in the timber being slightly off centre but the joint was very well and very precisely engineered.

I got a couple of the joints to play with and did a bit of messing around with them, I didn't find the noise or feel off putting and I certainly didn't find the performance anything other than good.

Interestingly (possibly not) I recessed a couple into the timber just to see and I liked that effect also.

I understand that I am not as qualified to comment as some of the great and more experienced minds on here but I would have to say, I like the joints.

Also, and this is very important, Stan is a nice guy.

[poolqjunkie]

Since Stan seems to have some improved joints made, I would like to reserve my comment after I receive more sample.
I have tried to recess the airlock into wood on cues I am building now and they seem to work fine, but I am open to new ideas. I have thought about the recessed idea of the 1kilk joint as well.
Will post my feedback when I feel that I have really tested it through.
I suspect the extension, although I have never seen it, is a new design whereas there is no need to spend so much time unscrewing and screwing to tighten up the extension once a set length is selected.