Tapers

[KeithinFrance]

Isn't it nice to have almost direct access to Trev's wisdom and very plain, straightforward explanations of what we tend to complicate unnecessarily? I've been absent for a couple of days, so I hadn't read this thread, but on coming back I read it with great pleasure as all the initial questions have been answered in a way thay I think almost everyone can understand.

Good work, Trev.

[eaoin11]

Thanks Trev, it's great to get such a comprehensive response.

I know many players request a stiff shaft but recall you and Mike saying something with a kind of 'spring' to it is more important than stiffness alone.

When I ordered my cue from Robin Cook I decided just to ask for a cue that plays well and is responsive, leaving the taper etc up to him.

That seems the safest bet if you trust the maker and don't really know how various factors will affect the performance of your cue.

[tmcthree]

Gauging whether timber is likely to be stiff or not is done mainly in the initial selection of it in the board (or plank) form. It's quite easy to feel the weight of the piece, and, to see the grain in it. There are certain signs to take notice of in the grain, but it doesn't always tell you everything you need to know, so weight is THE most important factor in assessing likely stiffness. The other aspects which are important are colour, shape of grain, knotts and distortion of the board, as well as the size of the board to determine the probably wastage.

As for the tapers and how they relate to stiffness....

There are things to be mindful of when a cue is being made, but in general, it's more to do with the stiffness of the timber being used as it is anything else. for example Naturally, if a cue is made with a fairly stiff piece of timber and a very slim taper, but, is made to a fairly heavy finished weight, and, most of that weight is concentrated towards the back of the cue, then it's more probable that the cue will have some spring to the shaft.

There are a number of variables to consider when a cue is being made, but the bottom line is that it's not an exactly precise science, and so, is not always an absolute certainty to predict just how well any individual cue will perform.

Thanks for the info.

[poolqjunkie]

The other aspects which are important are colour, shape of grain, knotts and distortion of the board, as well as the size of the board to determine the probably wastage.

Thank you so much for taking the time to address our questions, and answer them in such great details.

I am afraid I have some more questions.

Could you please share with us how does color and shape of grain indicate stiffness of the wood?

Thank you so much in advance.

[trevs1]

Thank you so much for taking the time to address our questions, and answer them in such great details.

I am afraid I have some more questions.

Could you please share with us how does color and shape of grain indicate stiffness of the wood?

Thank you so much in advance.

Hi Poolqjunkie,

When I mentioned this in my post earlier.........

"There are certain signs to take notice of in the grain, but it doesn't always tell you everything you need to know, so weight is THE most important factor in assessing likely stiffness. The other aspects which are important are colour, shape of grain, knotts and distortion of the board, as well as the size of the board to determine the probably wastage."

It was the first sentence only which was aimed at guaging stiffness. The rest was referring to the other issues relating to selecting suitable pieces for cue shafts.

This is what makes it difficult to source the kind of quality people demand on a consistent level. There might be many pieces of timber with perfect grain, but they may be too light. There may be many which are of a good weight, but with poor grain. Then there may be many with perfect grain and good weight, but also having discolouration running through it, or knotts, distortion or splits, etc etc.

So, we either choose boards which appear (more or less) fully useable, or we buy an enormous amount of timber, cut it down, and only use the few pieces amongst it all for shafts, then waste the rest which show slight or serious defect.

If this was done, the cost of that wastage would have to be put onto the price of the end product, because it not only means greater costs, but increased work to sort through it.

Careful selection at source is kind of crucial to avoiding these problems.

[poolqjunkie]

I see. Thank you. Sorry that I misread your previous post.
Speaking of timber and its density, if you dont mind me going off topic, I would like to ask you do you think that a piece of timber will decease in density as it gets drier, and therefore losses its stiffness since stiffness is largely dependent on its density?

[eaoin11]

I see. Thank you. Sorry that I misread your previous post.
Speaking of timber and its density, if you dont mind me going off topic, I would like to ask you do you think that a piece of timber will decease in density as it gets drier, and therefore losses its stiffness since stiffness is largely dependent on its density?
I think that it's the density of the fibrous material wood is made of that makes it stiff, rather than moisture content.
I'm pretty sure that wood tends to get stiffer as it dries out.

[poolqjunkie]

I see. Thank you. Sorry that I misread your previous post.
Speaking of timber and its density, if you dont mind me going off topic, I would like to ask you do you think that a piece of timber will decease in density as it gets drier, and therefore losses its stiffness since stiffness is largely dependent on its density?
I think that it's the density of the fibrous material wood is made of that makes it stiff, rather than moisture content.
I'm pretty sure that wood tends to get stiffer as it dries out.

Yes, I have heard this all the time, that older timber is stiffer.
So, you are saying that drier timber is denser?

[trevs1]

I see. Thank you. Sorry that I misread your previous post.
Speaking of timber and its density, if you dont mind me going off topic, I would like to ask you do you think that a piece of timber will decease in density as it gets drier, and therefore losses its stiffness since stiffness is largely dependent on its density?

To answer your question in a scientific sense, yes I guess it does decrease in density as it dries, as its density would be greater if it had greater mass in the same dimensional size, which the moisture held within would give it.

Still, timber does tend to become stiffer as it dries out, so well dried timber (especially kilned timber), will be far stiffer than it would when it's wet, or part seasoned, because it becomes far less pliable.

Obviously, it does kind of depend on the individual piece of timber in the first place, so a soft piece of timber won't be made stiff by drying it further.

[trevs1]

Yes, I have heard this all the time, that older timber is stiffer.
So, you are saying that drier timber is denser?

This is a myth, if anything, timber becomes softer with age, especially cue shafts.

[ChatLag]

This is a myth, if anything, timber becomes softer with age, especially cue shafts.

And now you are a Mythbuster...

That means vintage cues have been stiffer when they were new?

[khizzy]

This is a myth, if anything, timber becomes softer with age, especially cue shafts.

so does it affect the way the cue plays over a period of time.

[poolqjunkie]

Thak you once again Trevor.

It is very interesting that you mentioned old seasoned wood and kilned dried wood. I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

Well, I do notice that drier wood tends to be more brittle. e.g., it is easier to break a tree branch off a dead tree than one that is alive. I think the wood cell without water looses a lot of its integrity and strength.

When a piece of wood is air kilned, it is not completely dried up, is that correct?

From how I understand it, it has basically reached a kind of homogenous stage with its surrounding, so it is not much "wetter" or "drier" than its surrounding. At least I think that is what happened, but there will still be moisture going in and out of the wood, is that correct?

Some people say the longer you air dry your wood the drier it would become--but then once it is much drier than its surrounding, and the wood is unsealed, wouldn't moisture from the air go back in the wood to increase its moisture content again? Perhaps not at a very fast rate, but there has to be some moisture going back in the shaft, is that right?

I understand that some places would heat the wood up to evaporate the moisture in the wood when they kiln it. When the wood is delivered after this kilning process and is unsealed, would water enter back into the wood once it is cooled down? It would, I imagine, depends on the humidity of the storage room, how much moisture will gradually fid its way back into these kilned dried wood.

So, say if you buy a batch of kilned timber, you let them sit in a room for another year in your shop, should they then contain more mositure than when you first acquired them?

When you use this shaft on a cue, and send it to a place which is drier than your local climate, will the shaft then get drier over time, as it loses its moisture content to its surrounding?

In that case, wouldn't the stiffness and thus playability of the cue change?

[trevs1]

Answers in bold.

Thak you once again Trevor.

It is very interesting that you mentioned old seasoned wood and kilned dried wood. I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

Well, I do notice that drier wood tends to be more brittle. e.g., it is easier to break a tree branch off a dead tree than one that is alive. I think the wood cell without water looses a lot of its integrity and strength.

When a piece of wood is air kilned, it is not completely dried up, is that correct?

The wood is not completely dried up no, but is taken down to a set moisture level

From how I understand it, it has basically reached a kind of homogenous stage with its surrounding, so it is not much "wetter" or "drier" than its surrounding. At least I think that is what happened, but there will still be moisture going in and out of the wood, is that correct?

Timber is usually dried to a level which is just below the predicted moisture content of the surroundings it is expected to live within. Normally approx 7% to 10%

Some people say the longer you air dry your wood the drier it would become--but then once it is much drier than its surrounding, and the wood is unsealed, wouldn't moisture from the air go back in the wood to increase its moisture content again? Perhaps not at a very fast rate, but there has to be some moisture going back in the shaft, is that right?

Air dried timber will only ever get to a moisture level equal to the surroundings it is dried in. Typically this is perhaps 12% to 15% at best in normal environments

I understand that some places would heat the wood up to evaporate the moisture in the wood when they kiln it. When the wood is delivered after this kilning process and is unsealed, would water enter back into the wood once it is cooled down? It would, I imagine, depends on the humidity of the storage room, how much moisture will gradually fid its way back into these kilned dried wood.

Kilning timber is a system of injecting steam/moist air into the chamber it is kept in, then drawing off that moisture by mechanical means. This process is repeated over weeks until the timber is at the desired moisture level. If once dried and removed from a dry environment, then yes, the timber will slowly begin to pick up moisture again.

So, say if you buy a batch of kilned timber, you let them sit in a room for another year in your shop, should they then contain more mositure than when you first acquired them?

Yes, if it's not stored in a dry place

When you use this shaft on a cue, and send it to a place which is drier than your local climate, will the shaft then get drier over time, as it loses its moisture content to its surrounding?

Yes, it can do, and can also pick up moisture.

In that case, wouldn't the stiffness and thus playability of the cue change?

The answer to this is no, it isn't likely, as the difference in moisture level is so slight.

[poolqjunkie]

Answers in bold.



The answer to this is no, it isn't likely, as the difference in moisture level is so slight.

Thank you so very much. Much appreciated.