A very bad experience with Dave Coutts.

[goshow]

EDITED by O.P.

I had a problem with a Dave Coutts cue and now i think the problem is resolved.

[thai_son22]

very disappointing news i must say and i think especially the fact that Coutts gave value of £445 on the cue only to tell another its only with £250?

i dont like to and dont want to call any cue maker or any one a con. but cues are a very sensitive thing here and with greatest reason and what happened was a con.

sorry mate i dont know what do to but it is very shocking. just talk it out with Coutts i guess.

[goshow]

UPDATE

Since this original post my mate has been speaking to Dave and Dave has offered to make me a custom cue from scratch to the value i wanted for my JP.

I'm happy with that and would imagine it'll be something quite special when it's done.

I'll keep you all posted in 16 weeks when it's done.

[unclevit]

Well, where do I start?!!

Until recently I owned two cues, a JP paragon and a custom made TW, both nice cues but after deciding the TW was the right cue for me i thought i'd sell the JP. It was a lovely 1 piece ash cue with mini butt and tele. I wanted about £400 including the case and was in no rush for the cash.

One of my mates borrowed the JP and tried to sell it for me. Last week he was in Lincoln and had to call in at Dave Coutts' shop. He's been a regular customer of Coutts and is very well know on the local and national snooker scene. He happened to mention to Coutts that he was trying to sell a JP for me and after looking at it Coutts said he'd like the cue but could not give cash and was willing to swap it for a cue he had just finished working on. He produced a couple of cues one of which was a 1 pc maple with lots of multi splicings. He told my mate that he would throw in the mini and tele extensions too and told him that he would sell the cue for about £445 in the store. He also mentioned during conversation that John Parris and Mike Wooldridge are to be approached with caution these days as theya re importing cues and then badging them up themselves. (sorry JP and Mike just passing the message)

My mate called me and asked what i thought. My initial thoughts were that it would be easier to sell a brand new cue rather than a 2nd hand one with a couple of minor dings in it. My mate said it was a really good looking cue and should sell easily so I gave him the go ahead.

That day the cue was posted on here:
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=19036

And the following day it was sold for just shy of £400. One thing that did stick out a bit was the "customised by Dave Coutts" badge on the cue. I thought nothing much of it and when i sold it i told the guy exactly what had happened and how i came about the cue.

The guy who bought the cue phoned Dave Coutts the next day and was informed by Coutts that it was a cue that he imported and was not worth anywhere near what he paid for it. It was worth about £250. understandnably the guy who bought the cue was not too pleased and wanted a refund of £130 or a total refund.

I'm a man of my word and don't rip people off. I've had it done to myself and it's not nice so i informed the guy that i'd give him a full refund and i'd be going to see Coutts to get my parris back.

I phoned my mate to let him know the score and he rang Coutts to let him know what i intended to do only to be told by Coutts that he'd already sold my Parris for £350 or so.

I'm off to see the guy who I sold the Coutts tomorrow and am in two minds what to do really.

Now I appreciate that Coutts never said that it wasn't a cue he had made from start to finish but likewise he never said it wasn't. If you went into a Ferarri showroom and did the same deal on a car that looked like a genuine ferarri but when you got out the showroom found out it was a ford fiest with a bodykit you wouldn't be very happy and would be fully entitled to your cash back.

Having been in touch with trading standards they state you have 14 days settling period no matter what the deal.

I play snooker for a local police team and spoke to a couple of the lads last night about it and they both agree that Coutts has comitted a crime of deception here. The criminal definition of deception is simple:
"s15(4) provides that "deception" means:

any deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to fact or as to law, including a deception as to the present intentions of the person using the deception or any other person. "

obtaining property by deception:
s15 TA68 states:

(1) A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains property belonging to another, with intent to permanently depriving the other of it shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
(2) ...a person is to be treated as obtaining property if he obtains ownership, possession or control of it and 'obtain' includes obtaining for another or enabling another to obtain or to retain.


It fits like a glove really.

I don't really know what to do with this one now, i don't like hassle and just want the JP back or the cash, even the £350 that Coutts got will do and i'll take a loss.

Any suggestions?

If this thing really went the way you told here, I am on your side. Court case would end his future attempt towards others

Update : It's good to hear that the case is solved, and both sides are happy. Let us know how it ends when you get the new cue. If he really 'imports' cues, wonder where from ?

[goshow]

If this thing really went the way you told here, I am on your side. Court case would end his future attempt towards others

Well i trust my mate but can't say 100% what the conversation was between Dave and himself, but as i've said in the update, i'm happy to resolve this by Dave making me a cue.

Hopefully this was just all a genuine mistake.

[noel]

Any suggestions?

Well actually, yes.




=o)

Noel

[ken147]

You have to remember that Coutts cheated and con you, and you are willing to accept a custom cue from him??? This was not an honest mistake, its fraud and deception!!!

If I was you, you should be compensated by cash so you can get a proper custom cue by many of the top cue makers, Trevor White, Mike Wooldridge, Robin etc. I don't see how you can trust Coutts after that incident!!!

[ChatLag]

You have to remember that Coutts cheated and con you, and you are willing to accept a custom cue from him??? This was not an honest mistake, its fraud and deception!!!

If I was you, you should be compensated by cash so you can get a proper custom cue by many of the top cue makers, Trevor White, Mike Wooldridge, Robin etc. I don't see how you can trust Coutts after that incident!!!

Just relax....
Now we have heard that there are some "If..." and "I don't know...".
There are a few people involved leading to a chinese whispers game.
It sounds that the behavior of Dave Coutts was not good in this case but do not forget that he is one of that well known top cue makers with a reputation to lose.

[ken147]

Just relax....
Now we have heard that there are some "If..." and "I don't know...".
There are a few people involved leading to a chinese whispers game.
It sounds that the behavior of Dave Coutts was not good in this case but do not forget that he is one of that well known top cue makers with a reputation to lose.

Yes his behaviour was very inappropriate... The end of the day Coutts has a reputation to keep but he's not doing himself any favours by misleading, miss selling, conning the his prospective clients!!! So don't forget that he is a well known cue maker who has just conned a client!!! Coutts is a respected cue maker but it seems that he's less than honest to his clients.

[ChatLag]

Well i trust my mate but can't say 100% what the conversation was between Dave and himself, but as i've said in the update, i'm happy to resolve this by Dave making me a cue.

Hopefully this was just all a genuine mistake.

Yes his behaviour was very inappropriate... The end of the day Coutts has a reputation to keep but he's not doing himself any favours by misleading, miss selling, conning the his prospective clients!!! So don't forget that he is a well known cue maker who has just conned a client!!! Coutts is a respected cue maker but it seems that he's less than honest to his clients.

First, there was another person inbetween the communication.
Second, after a telephone call Dave C. agreed to make a custom cue to solve the matter.
Sounds as if he has realized his mistake and is interested in fixing it. And for me that is what counts more.

[ken147]

Well if he's happy then it's a good result...

[ChatLag]

We will hear in 16 to 20 weeks if he is happy with the result...

[ste bed]

the fact of the matter is he did know what he was doing in the 1st place and if nobody had of said anything he would have got away with cheating someone out of there cue worth £400 and gave them a cue worth £250 tops. this as me thinking how many time could he have done this in the past to people who are not as clued up as some of us on the snooker forum. in my opinoin this is a arseholes trick and dave coutts should be ashamed of himself .

[ChatLag]

the fact of the matter is he did know what he was doing in the 1st place and if nobody had of said anything he would have got away with cheating someone out of there cue worth £400 and gave them a cue worth £250 tops. this as me thinking how many time could he have done this in the past to people who are not as clued up as some of us on the snooker forum. in my opinoin this is a arseholes trick and dave coutts should be ashamed of himself .

Hm... Well, I see the point and it is absolutely understandable when I look from that side.

[ken147]

Well my thoughts are entirely with you ste bed... Conning, fraud, miss selling, need I say more!!!