Correct cue length 55"?

[cueman25]

You don't happen to have a link to some info on this do you? I am quite interested in the mechanics of it all so this comment interested me Plus there is at least 1 inch maybe 2 out the back of my hand, and I do have some trouble getting a lot of screw so maybe this has something to do with it.

p.s. Thanks for the mention of the "Frank Callan" website in this thread, I've been reading it, it's got some great advice on there.

Hi,
This is the single point that I cannot say with absolute certainty. Everything else - emphatically yes, don't even think about doubting Frank Callan, his pedigree and links with the likes of top pros Steve Davis etc. speaks for itself.
So, the overhand.
Since i've gone through the cue shortening thing myself, and I know how that can affect the butt holding....if you ever do it, try holding the butt with the flat on the side so it feels like it's up the butt still.
(please go back through the thread and read the way you check for proper body position and cue length - though you probably hold the butt there already because it's too long a cue without knowing it).
It's a bit of knowledge (could be opinion) picked up when asking around for the cue shortening service. Apparently, unless the butt is held at the back, the cue ball control is hindered. Now, key word is hindered.
Since i'm not the world's greatest on a screw back shot, never have been, i've not noticed any significant improvement. Juries out. May do in time as I learn the new cue, which it really is in effect. Don't panic here if you do it as if you get the length right, you take to it like a duck to water, after an hour or so.
The main thing I found was it felt strange holding the end, i'm just not used to doing so.
BUT.... (excuse the pun), ironically it FEELS like I have more control of everything, not just the ball. I can play with a bit more zip if I wish.
I suggest you look elsewhere for the cure. Go onto utube and watch "snooker pro tips", make sure you type in the pro bit, you will get a WPBSA coach, "Neilmaxman". One video is all about getting through the ball correctly for a screw shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhYuL...eature=channel
End of the butt may help, but not if the basics aren't right.

[nrage]

This is an attempt to collect all of cueman's instructions into a step by step guide of what to do and what to measure (hope he doesn't mind!).

As soon as I get a chance I'll post my measurements to this thread.

I have a suspicion that the hand-to-hand distance is the most important factor, followed by the balance point in relation to that on shots where a longer or shorter bridge is used, or a cue extension.

If the hand-to-hand distance changes it will alter the timing of the shot, causing you to strike the ball before or after the grip hand is in the optimum 90 degree position. If your cue motion has any pendulum like motion (as opposed to a truly level action) and you strike before the 90 degree position your cue tip will be moving upwards, after and the tip is moving downwards.

A shift in the balance point will change the forces acting on the cue, either making it more prone to pivot, or less than you are used to. This may account for more/less top/bottom than intended.

It should be possible when playing shots with an extension, using the same hand-to-hand distance and a correctly weighted extension to get the same relative balance point (albeit with a longer bridge) and if so this would be the ideal in such situations.

@cazmac1 - I'd suggest measuring the following with the cue you currently play best with, then you'll have an idea what your body is 'used to' doing and you can decide if/what you want to change. Once you have your body position etc how you want it, then you can decide if a shorter cue is what you want.. provided the other dimensions are the same, including the relative balance position.

Anyway.. on to the measuring..

--------------------------------------

PLAYER
------
1) Height:
2) Arm-span:

CUE
---
3) Cue-tip-width:
4) Cue-butt-width:
5) Cue-length:
6) Balance point:

POSITION
--------
7) Bridge-length:
8) Bridge to grip:

How to measure
--------------
1) Stand up against a wall, back straight, arms at sides. Have someone make a mark on the wall level with the top of your head.
2) Stand with both arms out at 90 degrees to the floor, directly out to the side not toward the front or back. Have someone measure the distance between finger tips.
3) Measure the distance across the cue tip with a small ruler.
4) Measure the distance across the cue butt with a small ruler.
5) Measure the distance from cue tip to butt with a tape measure.
6) Hold out one finger horizontally, place the cue across the finger (also horizontally), move it until it balances (horizontally). Measure the distance from the butt to the point where it rests on your finger.
7) Place the white on the brown spot and cue up to it. Measure the distance between the cue tip and where it touches the bridge.
8) Cue up to the white on the brown spot with your normal bridge, the most level cue you can manage and the tip as close to the white as possible. Have a friend stand side on and ask them to adjust your grip hand until the angle between the forearm and cue is 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the butt to the 1st finger and thumb position, subtract this from the total cue length then subtract the bridge length to get the distance between your bridge and grip.

Notes
-----
The distance from the brown spot to the edge of the half circle is 11.5 inches on a full size table.
The "recommended" or "orthodox" position for the forearm on cue ball impact is 90 degrees to the cue.
The "recommended" or "orthodox" bridge length is 12 inches.

[nrage]

(please go back through the thread and read the way you check for proper body position and cue length - though you probably hold the butt there already because it's too long a cue without knowing it).

No, actually it was a lesson I took with Tom Butcher at the Epsom Snooker Club which helped me sort out the "orthodox" position for my bridge and grip, prior to that my bridge was short and I was holding the cue at the end (hand-to-hand distance was much too long).

My potting improved immediately after that, so much so I managed to win the Wed night tournament 2 weeks back which pretty much paid for the lesson (thanks Tom!)

It's a bit of knowledge (could be opinion) picked up when asking around for the cue shortening service. Apparently, unless the butt is held at the back, the cue ball control is hindered. Now, key word is hindered.

Ok, I think my problem with screw is something else (see end of this reply) .. or at least, I'll concentrate on the something else until it proves not to be

Since i'm not the world's greatest on a screw back shot, never have been, i've not noticed any significant improvement. Juries out. May do in time as I learn the new cue, which it really is in effect. Don't panic here if you do it as if you get the length right, you take to it like a duck to water, after an hour or so.
The main thing I found was it felt strange holding the end, i'm just not used to doing so.
BUT.... (excuse the pun), ironically it FEELS like I have more control of everything, not just the ball. I can play with a bit more zip if I wish.
I suggest you look elsewhere for the cure. Go onto utube and watch "snooker pro tips", make sure you type in the pro bit, you will get a WPBSA coach, "Neilmaxman". One video is all about getting through the ball correctly for a screw shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhYuL...eature=channel
End of the butt may help, but not if the basics aren't right.

I have seen his videos, they're really good. I think my problem is where I am striking the cue ball. I recently got hold of an aramith training ball. Using the markings for where to strike the cue ball, and some good chalking I can leave a mark on the ball to show where I strike it each time. I've found I strike a little high of the optimum position, that's what I'm going to work on first.

I am not consistent, but the best screw I have managed to apply in practice was a red off the blue spot from 6 inches (slight angle to allow me to stay down and not move my cue after the shot), where I screws the white on a slight angle to the side, then off a little past the middle of the table. But, as I said, it's nowhere near consistent and I find myself playing stun when I want screw a lot of the time.

[cueman25]

This is an attempt to collect all of cueman's instructions into a step by step guide of what to do and what to measure (hope he doesn't mind!).

As soon as I get a chance I'll post my measurements to this thread.

I have a suspicion that the hand-to-hand distance is the most important factor, followed by the balance point in relation to that on shots where a longer or shorter bridge is used, or a cue extension.

If the hand-to-hand distance changes it will alter the timing of the shot, causing you to strike the ball before or after the grip hand is in the optimum 90 degree position. If your cue motion has any pendulum like motion (as opposed to a truly level action) and you strike before the 90 degree position your cue tip will be moving upwards, after and the tip is moving downwards.

A shift in the balance point will change the forces acting on the cue, either making it more prone to pivot, or less than you are used to. This may account for more/less top/bottom than intended.

It should be possible when playing shots with an extension, using the same hand-to-hand distance and a correctly weighted extension to get the same relative balance point (albeit with a longer bridge) and if so this would be the ideal in such situations.

@cazmac1 - I'd suggest measuring the following with the cue you currently play best with, then you'll have an idea what your body is 'used to' doing and you can decide if/what you want to change. Once you have your body position etc how you want it, then you can decide if a shorter cue is what you want.. provided the other dimensions are the same, including the relative balance position.

Anyway.. on to the measuring..

--------------------------------------

PLAYER
------
1) Height:
2) Arm-span:

CUE
---
3) Cue-tip-width:
4) Cue-butt-width:
5) Cue-length:
6) Balance point:

POSITION
--------
7) Bridge-length:
8) Bridge to grip:

How to measure
--------------
1) Stand up against a wall, back straight, arms at sides. Have someone make a mark on the wall level with the top of your head.
2) Stand with both arms out at 90 degrees to the floor, directly out to the side not toward the front or back. Have someone measure the distance between finger tips.
3) Measure the distance across the cue tip with a small ruler.
4) Measure the distance across the cue butt with a small ruler.
5) Measure the distance from cue tip to butt with a tape measure.
6) Hold out one finger horizontally, place the cue across the finger (also horizontally), move it until it balances (horizontally). Measure the distance from the butt to the point where it rests on your finger.
7) Place the white on the brown spot and cue up to it. Measure the distance between the cue tip and where it touches the bridge.
8) Cue up to the white on the brown spot with your normal bridge, the most level cue you can manage and the tip as close to the white as possible. Have a friend stand side on and ask them to adjust your grip hand until the angle between the forearm and cue is 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the butt to the 1st finger and thumb position, subtract this from the total cue length then subtract the bridge length to get the distance between your bridge and grip.

Notes
-----
The distance from the brown spot to the edge of the half circle is 11.5 inches on a full size table.
The "recommended" or "orthodox" position for the forearm on cue ball impact is 90 degrees to the cue.
The "recommended" or "orthodox" bridge length is 12 inches.

NICE ONE. You are correct in virtually all you say....but........
WOOHA, WOOHA !!!
Information overload there son, I know all this already and even I had trouble following your instructions. So give the guys who don't a fair chance without the brain going dead.

Lets get it sorted in words of one syllable (almost).

YOU MUST START WITH A GOOD TEXTBOOK STANCE GIVING A GOOD BODY BALANCE OR EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME.

READ THE FRANK CALLAN WBSITE FIRST.

1. Get down on the table, start with your bridge point to white distance set at 10-12 inches on the shaft, knuckles to tip.
(If you are no where near this as a rule STOP RIGHT NOW and see the PRE-INSTRUCTIONS below).

2. Keep the cue level as you slide the back hand into a position which makes the body comfy and the back forearm vertical (get someone else to check you).

3. That's it, your ideal cue length is now known. Get someone to note the position just behind your back hand and measure back from it to the tip (allow 1/2 to 3/4 ins play.).
DO NOT START MESSING ABOUT CHANGING BUTT DIAMETERS. The one you are holding will technically be a little too small.....it's up the butt remember!!!

4. Check you have full freedom of movement for all types of shots. You are done.

5. If you are having a cue made from 58" down to as much as 56", make sure you start with a cue which is 1/2 to 1 ounce heavier than you need IF the taper adjustment is going to be removed a lot depending on tip sizes before and after. You cue maker will advise.

6. Get a good quality "off the shelf" hand made cue you like the feel of, try it and have them alter that unless it's a mile away.

[cueman25]

How to find your ideal cue length.

YOU MUST START WITH A GOOD TEXTBOOK STANCE GIVING A GOOD BODY BALANCE OR EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME.

READ THE FRANK CALLAN WEBSITE FIRST.

1. Get down on the table, start with your bridge point to white distance set at 10-12 inches on the shaft, knuckles to tip.
(If you are no where near this as a rule STOP RIGHT NOW and see the PRE-INSTRUCTIONS below).

2. Keep the cue level as you slide the back hand into a position which makes the body comfy and the back forearm vertical (get someone else to check you).

3. That's it, your ideal cue length is now known. Get someone to note the position just behind your back hand and measure back from it to the tip (allow 1/2 to 3/4 ins play from the side of the little finger).

DO NOT START MESSING ABOUT CHANGING BUTT DIAMETERS. The one you are holding will technically be a little too small anyhow.....it's up the butt remember!!!

4. Check you have full freedom of movement for all types of shots. You are done.

5. If you are having a cue made from 58" down to as much as 56", make sure you start with a cue which is 1/2 to 1 ounce heavier than you need IF the taper adjustment is going to be removed a lot, depending on tip sizes before and after. Your cue maker will advise.

6. Get a good quality "off the shelf" hand made cue you like the feel of, try it and have them alter that unless it's a mile away.

[nrage]

@cueman25..

I'm not personally planning on changing anything at present, I'm still working on getting my technique right. It just takes time/practice.

All I was doing was collecting everything you've already said into one place .. I couldn't resist adding a few musings of my own, and I thought it would be cool to compare some measurements.

That's all

[cueman25]

Ideal cue length

How to find your ideal cue length.

YOU MUST START WITH A GOOD TEXTBOOK STANCE GIVING A GOOD BODY BALANCE OR EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME.

READ THE FRANK CALLAN WEBSITE FIRST.

1. Get down on the table, start with your bridge point to white distance set at 10-12 inches on the shaft, knuckles to tip.

** If you are no where near this as a rule STOP RIGHT NOW and try to play at the correct distance FIRST. If it's that bad for you (used to 6?) then you may have to consider a prolonged trial.

2. Keep the cue level as you slide the back hand into a position which makes the body comfy and the back forearm vertical (get someone else to check you).

3. That's it, your ideal cue length is now known. Get someone to note the position just behind your back hand and measure back from it to the tip (allow 1/2 to 3/4 ins play from the side of the little finger).

DO NOT START MESSING ABOUT CHANGING BUTT DIAMETERS. The one you are holding will technically be a little too small anyhow.....it's up the butt remember!!!

4. Check you have full freedom of movement for all types of shots. You are done.

5. If you are having a cue made from 58" down to as much as 56", make sure you start with a cue which is 1/2 to 1 ounce heavier than you need IF the taper adjustment is going to be removed a lot, depending on tip sizes before and after. Your cue maker will advise.

6. Get a good quality "off the shelf" hand made cue you like the feel of, try it and have them alter that unless it's a mile away.

[cueman25]

@cueman25..

I'm not personally planning on changing anything at present, I'm still working on getting my technique right. It just takes time/practice.

All I was doing was collecting everything you've already said into one place .. I couldn't resist adding a few musings of my own, and I thought it would be cool to compare some measurements.

That's all

You did a fair job, but you stuck in a bit too much that will come later....and you don't need the wall

[nrage]

As promised..

As promised here are my measurements.

PLAYER
------
1) Height: 69.0" (5'9")
2) Arm-span: 70.0"

CUE
---
3) Cue-tip-width: 9.5mm
4) Cue-butt-width: 29mm
5) Cue-length: 57.5"
6) Balance point: 19.0"

POSITION
--------
7) Bridge-length: 11.5"
8) Bridge to grip: 40.0"

It is a perhaps little known fact that your arm span will, on average, correlate with your height. In my case my arms are slightly longer, but only by a little less than 1 inch (My height is actually 176cm aka 69.23" and I rounded down).

[cueman25]

As promised here are my measurements.

PLAYER
------
1) Height: 69.0" (5'9")
2) Arm-span: 70.0"

CUE
---
3) Cue-tip-width: 9.5mm
4) Cue-butt-width: 29mm
5) Cue-length: 57.5"
6) Balance point: 19.0"

POSITION
--------
7) Bridge-length: 11.5"
8) Bridge to grip: 40.0"

It is a perhaps little known fact that your arm span will, on average, correlate with your height. In my case my arms are slightly longer, but only by a little less than 1 inch (My height is actually 176cm aka 69.23" and I rounded down).

And is your hand at the back of the butt at address and the forearm vertical with this cue? If not where is it?
The most important stat....

[nrage]

And is your hand at the back of the butt at address and the forearm vertical with this cue? If not where is it?
The most important stat....

Like I said earlier, I had a lesson with Tom Butcher and he helped me position my grip so that my forearm is vertical at address position. No, it's not at the butt, my forefinger+thumb are approx 6" from the butt, leaving approx "3 out the back of my hand more or less.

I am quite happy with my setup

The idea was to post what I am doing, so other people can compare (if they're having trouble). After my lesson I saw immediate improvements in potting accuracy and control, and while my cueing is still not perfect I believe it's improving steadily.

For example, I managed a break of 21 on the weekend, intentionally obtaining position, this is not something I have done before. In the past my position was mostly luck.

[cueman25]

Like I said earlier, I had a lesson with Tom Butcher and he helped me position my grip so that my forearm is vertical at address position. No, it's not at the butt, my forefinger+thumb are approx 6" from the butt, leaving approx "3 out the back of my hand more or less.

I am quite happy with my setup

The idea was to post what I am doing, so other people can compare (if they're having trouble). After my lesson I saw immediate improvements in potting accuracy and control, and while my cueing is still not perfect I believe it's improving steadily.

For example, I managed a break of 21 on the weekend, intentionally obtaining position, this is not something I have done before. In the past my position was mostly luck.

The stats. don't add up somewhere, and that's the problem of posting them and trying to compare.
For example, I have a cue here 1/2 inch longer than yours. I am almost 3 inches smaller than you and struggle to buy any garment where the sleeves are short enough.
Yet, at the back of the hand there's less butt showing than you have with a correct set up address.
3" out of the back of the hand is an unnecessary encumbrance. Even if you don't appreciate it.
Various things cause a player to play to less than full potential. That's often why you cure one fault and there's still a way to go.
The coach (if good) should tackle many areas, but should do so in order and in stages. A bit like learning someone to drive.
But no instructor would let a pupil set off if the legs are a bit on the short side without first adjusting the seat. He may drive reasonably enough, but it will be a hinderance sooner or later.

[cueman25]

Like I said earlier, I had a lesson with Tom Butcher and he helped me position my grip so that my forearm is vertical at address position. No, it's not at the butt, my forefinger+thumb are approx 6" from the butt, leaving approx "3 out the back of my hand more or less.

I am quite happy with my setup

The idea was to post what I am doing, so other people can compare (if they're having trouble). After my lesson I saw immediate improvements in potting accuracy and control, and while my cueing is still not perfect I believe it's improving steadily.

For example, I managed a break of 21 on the weekend, intentionally obtaining position, this is not something I have done before. In the past my position was mostly luck.

By the way, having 3" out of the back of the hand takes 3" off the balance point of the cue and so you are not getting (if you need it) the benefit of that huge 19" forward balance point.
This is why people advocate having the hand at the back, because it helps cue ball control.
The actual weight of the cue has to be accounted for too, which I don't think you've mentioned (?).

I think i've mentioned everything I can for you and will now leave you to implement as you wish.

Good luck

[nrage]

By the way, having 3" out of the back of the hand takes 3" off the balance point of the cue and so you are not getting (if you need it) the benefit of that huge 19" forward balance point.
This is why people advocate having the hand at the back, because it helps cue ball control.

Yep, but having a vertical forearm at address position is way more important at this stage. Experimenting with a shift in the balance point can come later if I find I have any trouble i.e. getting through the ball.

Is there a recognised 'best' balance point ratio to cue length? (assuming orthodox bridge and grip positions).

The actual weight of the cue has to be accounted for too, which I don't think you've mentioned (?).

I actually have no idea what it weighs. I'll weight it sometime.

I think i've mentioned everything I can for you and will now leave you to implement as you wish.
Good luck

Thanks!

[cueman25]

Yep, but having a vertical forearm at address position is way more important at this stage. Experimenting with a shift in the balance point can come later if I find I have any trouble i.e. getting through the ball.

Is there a recognised 'best' balance point ratio to cue length? (assuming orthodox bridge and grip positions).



I actually have no idea what it weighs. I'll weight it sometime.



Thanks!

" Yep, but having a vertical forearm at address position is way more important at this stage. Experimenting with a shift in the balance point can come later if I find I have any trouble i.e. getting through the ball.

Is there a recognised 'best' balance point ratio to cue length? (assuming orthodox bridge and grip positions)."


......one last try.
To answer the above statements correctly.
You have already shifted the natural balance point of the cue as it was made by using it "up the butt".
You (I assume) intend to learn, be coached, improve your game with this set up. Presumably, once all avenues have been explored (or not) you may at some point in the future have a shorter cue (or this one altered) made and then hold the butt in the correct position (do you see any top pros holding the cue 3" up the butt?).
If you intend progressing far down the line, cue shortening is about as radical as you could get and anything you have "ingrained" will be all the harder to remove.
To make an analogy.
A cricketer learns and plays all his matches holding the bat half way down the handle because it's a bit too long, he gets by and when he gets "found out" in the county league for lack of shot playing range, can't pass 10.
He then makes the shift to the right position......out first ball every time.
Think about it.
Amen.