Tip and chalk questions

[BraveBen]

Obviously I disagree with you both (trevs1 & ADR147) else I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I used to use sand paper like almost everyone else does until I was converted to this method. Perhaps I'm being presumtious here but I'm guessing neither of you have actually tried flattening off a tip this way on over a hundred tips like I have (although I'm sure at least one of you has re-tipped more cues than I've had hot dinners!).

I'm just saying that from my experience this way gives far better results and just because everybody else uses sandpaper doesn't make it better or easier to get a perfectly smooth and flat tip base like you can using a blade.

Take it or leave it I guess.

[trevs1]

Ben,

If you place a square of abrasive paper on a very flat surface, and then rub a tip over that in circular motion for about 3 seconds, the tips base will be totally flat. This is all that is required to enable a flush contact with the top of a cue shaft / ferrule. The tiniest drop of adhesive will bond it, and from there, it's into the shaping of it and job done.

The way you're doing it in the clip you posted is fine if you prefer that, but it is more tricky and is clearly more time consuming...fact.

Using a blade is best avoided altogether if there is another way of doing it, and seeing as the abrasive paper method is faster also, to me at least, it's a no brainer.

As for cutting the excess off the tip once it's bonded, then yes, blades are the way to go.

This clip is one I made especially for someone who wanted to see how I go about this process, so I did this and slowed down the speed of how I would usually do it to allow easy viewing of that. Obviously this is also dangerous if you're not too good with your hands, but at least this is a little more necessary to get towards the final result of a perfectly shaped tip. Scraping the bottom of a tip with a razor sharp stanley blade is not exactly wise in my view, but as you rightly say..."take it or leave it I guess"

Clip..... http://www.youtube.com/user/TWtip1?blend=1&ob=5

We all have our ways of doing things, so if this works for you, then great.

[limecc]

I can't see that scraping a tip will give a finer finish as the tendency would be to pull fibres out. There's not going to be any residue left behind by silicon carbide paper of any grade, so on what do you base your theory that the bond is chemically stronger? I'm not trying to pull you down, just curious as to what you where you got your info.

[BraveBen]

A lot of people I see doing tips, not including the minority with years of experiance and a refined method, use pretty rough grade sandpaper to sand the base which can leave the bottom of the tip a little fluffy. However, what also I see is that people hold the tip between their thumb and index finger and then rub it on the sandpaper in a circular motion. This can result in pressure from the side of the tip more than the middle and a slightly domed finish. I've stopped people halfway through doing this to prove it to them, and when they turn over the tip all the blue chalk coating is gone from around the edges but there's still blue in the middle. This to me suggests they are creating a slight dome. The way I do it doesn't seem to do this and I have compared doing it both ways with better results from the blade. I've never pulled the fibres doing it this way. Occasionally I've clipped the edge of the tip less than half a mm, but never going in further than the overhang that I cut off anyway.

Of course you can achieve a good flat surface both ways. However, I think it's a method well worth trying and seeing for yourself. It may increase the job from 6 seconds to 15 seconds, but I don't see how that really matters. It's not like it's going to add minutes to the task.

As for the chemical thing I'm just saying that the superglue works by binding as much contact surface area as possible, so if the surface is pitted it wont work as well. I guess though you could argue that there's still bags of surface area avaliable in either method to give an excellent bond. I've never ever had a tip come off, in fact if you don't have a blade to cut the tip off it's a real struggle to pull or bite off (which is a bad idea anyway).

[ADR147]

well i gave it a try just to see and i can see no advantage at all - but then i have fitted a lot of tips!

[limecc]

The opposite argument could apply in that a pitted surface has MORE surface area and acts as an anchor for the glue. this is why you rough up an inner tube when fixing a puncture. I think the strength of the bond is more dependent on the type, quality, and age of the glue being used, as well as the method.

I used to coat the base of the tip in superglue, let it go off and then flat it in a circular motion like Trev says. Then i was bonding two hard surfaces rather than disparate materials. Lately I switched to Tweetens tip glue and don't bother to harden the glue side of the tip but believe it MUST be flatted. I've never had problems either.

[BoBnoGG!n]

did you ever consider that just because you use a blade, and the blade is 'flat' that it doesnt actually mean the tip is flatter? like, if u scrub it one way with the blade, it might b flat on that plane, but if you were to rotate the tip 45 degrees, the direction in which your blade travels wont be flat, even though you may think it is. its like slicing bread, just because your standing over a loaf of bread, slicing downwards, and your knife is 'straight' doesnt mean your slice of bread will be straight when you look at it side on. the blade is only flat in the direction you scrape. and you cannot scrape perfectly flat if there is NO reference in which you can keep it straight. ill draw a diagram to show u what i mean.



In diagram A, you scrape the bottom of the tip (BLUE) with the blade (GREY) towards the screen, and it may appear flat, as from that angle, the blade is indeed 'flat'. HOWEVER, in diagram B, your perspective has changed, and in this pic, the tip is scraped from LEFT to RIGHT. diagram A shows you that it can appear flat from there, but in diagram B, because your blade is too thin and your scraping across it is NOT PERFECTLY STRAIGHT OR FLAT it will potentially cause the tips surface from this angle, to look like that. FLAT is only a point of reference in which you see things. not a 'fact'. using a blade will not mean it is any more flatter, then using sand paper.

you may think your scraping is perfectly flat but IMO it isnt.

sandpaper is a better way. everything comes down to how you use it

[Acrowot]

Must agree with you, entirely, BoBnoGG!n. If Trevor does not know how to put tips on, then nobody does. He must have done thousands.

[ADR147]

i think this is about fixing a problem that does not exist!

[Neil Taperell]

Andrew , What grade of paper is Trevor using for the tip and the ferrule . Are they different ?

Thanks

[ADR147]

Andrew , What grade of paper is Trevor using for the tip and the ferrule . Are they different ?

Thanks

i am not sure mate i would guess 240 grit then glass paper

[BraveBen]

did you ever consider that just because you use a blade, and the blade is 'flat' that it doesnt actually mean the tip is flatter? like, if u scrub it one way with the blade, it might b flat on that plane, but if you were to rotate the tip 45 degrees, the direction in which your blade travels wont be flat, even though you may think it is.

Yes, I havecertainly considered this. That's why I've taken the time to compare the results doing it both ways and reached the conclusion that by using a blade I am able to get a smoother and flatter surface.

You know, rather than speculating on how good or bad my method is, you could just give it a go yourself. It does take a couple of goes to get it right tho.

[BraveBen]

Must agree with you, entirely, BoBnoGG!n. If Trevor does not know how to put tips on, then nobody does. He must have done thousands.

I think that really misses the point tbh & I've never said he doesn't know how to put tips on.

[BraveBen]

i think this is about fixing a problem that does not exist!

You're probably right. I should have just kept it to myself.

[BoBnoGG!n]

oh, ive done both methods. and i reckon youre just doing the sandpaper bit wrong, if you think doing it with the blade is getting a smoother and flatter surface. i get a smooth flat surface with some 400 grit sand paper, then rubbing it on a bit of flat table or bench, so it 'glosses' the bottom of the tip a bit. not saying your methods bad, but there is no way possible that it could be as scientifically accurate, as using a piece of sand paper (depending on what grade) on a flat bench (assuming the bench is 'flat')

however, i do use a blade to find good elks. if u scrape the bottom with a blade, bad elks can flake up a bit, but a good hard elk generally just scrapes off lil bits of tip 'dust'.

and in case you're wondering, ive done hundreds of tips. so not new to this. it all comes down to method, but for the general player who does tips, id recommend sand paper. as long as the final stroke of sanding the base of your tip is applied with even pressure (not neccessarily pushing down hard, but pressure applied so the tip is flat on the sand paper) in 1 direction, you should get a perfectly flat tip. depends how rough the sand paper needs to be for what tip aswell. like, for pro granites i use 180 to 240 at times, because they're rock hard.

a lot of people DO do it incorrectly tho, like one guy one time, asked for a tip, i told him id b happy to put it on for him, but he was holding sand paper in one hand and rubbing it on the bottom of the tip in the other hand, and he kept going "i know how to do it!". then he broke (pool, english 8 ball) and his tip came flying off. some people haha