Luck in making a great cue?

[cueman]

Don't think this topic has been brought up before so tell me what you think, would also be good to get any cue makers give us their experience and knowledge too.

As per the subject, I have always wondered how much in terms of skill and knowledge goes into cue making and what percentage, if any, comes down to luck in creating a quality playing cue.
Now I'm not into talking about accuracy of splicing, or how good a shaft looks or anything like that, but the question is, can any cue maker absolutely hand on heart guarantee a top quality, professional standard playing cue?

When I say that I mean all the characteristics most good players look for in a cue, feel, responsiveness, balance etc. You see I hear and know of a lot of players (some good, some average to bad) who are always on the lookout for the perfect cue and even many professional players careers have struggled when looking out for the right cue when they've needed to replace their's. Now I appreciate that all players have different needs and such but there is only so much that a cue maker can do with a piece of wood so surely IMO there must be some element of luck in how it plays?

So we all know that the shaft is the most important part of a cue so how does a cue maker know from one piece of timber to another what will constitute these needs? Also do you feel that most cue makers don't really take that much into consideration due to the fact that wood is natural and therefore there aren't any real guarantees to be had, it really is just down to chance of how a cue turns out?

Now with this in mind what I can't buy into is the prices that some cue makers will charge for what is just ash or maple timber at the end of the day and most of it sourced from the same areas of the world and mostly from the same suppliers. How is it Craftsman can offer a basic plain Ebony/ash cue made to measure for £145 yet ask someone like Mike Wooldridge, no offence (just using a for instance here), and you are looking at £400+, and Parris, Hunt for their best work at nearer £550 minimum?

This isn't to cause argument or anything I just want some clarification as I think its important for anyone looking into buying a cue just what factors to consider.

[flame]

i am also not wanting to argue,but a good analogy for me would be,if you were well into cars, and you won the lottery,if 2 cars would get you to your destination with no problems,one is a vauxhall one is a ferrari,which one would you buy(don't forget your into cars).i would guess you'd go for the ferrari,doesn't mean it won't break down,but with the quality control and quality of build it would be less likely.

[jim evans]

cues

good adaption of logic bill,ile have ferrari instead of cue thanks

[Inoffthered]

Now I'm not into talking about accuracy of splicing, or how good a shaft looks or anything like that, but the question is, can any cue maker absolutely hand on heart guarantee a top quality, professional standard playing cue?

From my own experience, H&O and JP from years ago ( my cue is 14yrs old ) there is no luck involved. Just quality craftmanship. Things have changed somewhat over the years at JP as he has more backroom staff doing the actual graft, although I am unsure how much 'hands on' input John Parris has in the daily production.

As for TW cues, I have not had one made yet. But EVERY review I have ever seen, along with pictures suggests not many cues ( if at all ) come any better.

You'd have to be very unfortunate to receive a badly made cue from any of these cue makers, as the skill and experience that goes into making a cue is world class.

I'm sure there will be people who will correct me, just my 2cents.

[cueman]

Doesn't really bear any relevance to cues though does it? It seems a cheap argument and always one that someone likes to come up with to counter it.

With a car you basically know what you are getting though, with cues you don't! You see all cars will be made to a certain production line, same parts fitted etc etc. Now nearly all cues are made from ash or maple from mostly the same suppliers from wood sourced from the same areas of the world, that is why you cannot use that as justification.

[crispian jones]

i dont think some cuemakers charge enoughf to be honest !

you are paying for the labour not just the materials, and where some cues are mass produced to pretty mutch the same spec, all the top cue makers must have each and every cue done to exact and im sure demanding specs.

i have not got any idea of what time is involved in making a cue, or the amount of dust that is consumed in the process, but i would put my house on it, that if cues were made by "plumbers" and "boilers" repared by the cuemakers there would be a lot less people worrying about the boiler braking down in the winter, and a lot less people ordering new cues just in the serch for that special one ?

i have had over the years 3 x parris 3 x wooldridge and 3 trevor whites all made for me and not one was over priced in my opinion !

[BoBnoGG!n]

i think its very justified. it is the ability to pick wood you're essentially after. for example, if u asked for a stiff shaft that DOESNT feel dead, then a good cuemaker should be able to pick that for you. someone like craftsman for example, dish out a bit more average wood. you get good and u get bad hitting cues, even tho their craftsmanship is consistently good. ive seen some really whippy craftsman, some dead feeling ones, and some excellent hitting ones. while with a MW, he would not send a cue out unless he believed himself honestly that it was a great hitting, responsive, good feeling cue. good cue makers pride themselves in that. which is why john parris keeps special shafts for ultimates. and every ultimate ive picked up has been absolutely wonderful.

for example, if you order a cue, or buy a cue through Omin, you could end up with anything. but if you do it through Unclevit, he will pick a shaft for you and to be honest, it makes a world of difference in the quality control of the shaft. every cue hes done for me n my friends (5+ now, another 5+ coming) has been absolutely fantastic! and i only get them cause i trust unclevits skills in wood selection. otherwise, i would have saved a bit more and put my faith in a cue trader with a bit more reputation outside of here that would also charge a bit more.

the prices cue makers charge is very justified in my opinion. like anything, they need to make a living too. like john parris has handful's of staff, you think its easy for him to pay these staff if he were dishing out cues at only 150 pounds? there is clearly a need and thats the only way he can meet demands and survive in the modern industry, despite wat anyone might think. fact is, if it were easy to do, itd b 'easy money' and everyone would b doing it, but fact is, it isnt. its a time consuming skill, one that takes ages to get right.

[unclevit]

(When I say that I mean all the characteristics most good players look for in a cue, feel, responsiveness, balance etc.)

It depends on the shaft selection process given by each cuemaker. Time consuming. When we want a quality playing shaft (like you said - feel, responsiveness, balance, sensitivity, etc.) , we may have to sacrifice more ash/maple wood blanks in order to get a really good one. A good shaft is all you need. Butt and Wood beauties are personal preferences. This is why our plain black ebony butt with fine playing quality ash shaft can cost you about US$165 for a custom size. Hope this helps

[unclevit]

i think its very justified. it is the ability to pick wood you're essentially after. for example, if u asked for a stiff shaft that DOESNT feel dead, then a good cuemaker should be able to pick that for you. someone like craftsman for example, dish out a bit more average wood. you get good and u get bad hitting cues, even tho their craftsmanship is consistently good. ive seen some really whippy craftsman, some dead feeling ones, and some excellent hitting ones. while with a MW, he would not send a cue out unless he believed himself honestly that it was a great hitting, responsive, good feeling cue. good cue makers pride themselves in that. which is why john parris keeps special shafts for ultimates. and every ultimate ive picked up has been absolutely wonderful.

for example, if you order a cue, or buy a cue through Omin, you could end up with anything. but if you do it through Unclevit, he will pick a shaft for you and to be honest, it makes a world of difference in the quality control of the shaft. every cue hes done for me n my friends (5+ now, another 5+ coming) has been absolutely fantastic! and i only get them cause i trust unclevits skills in wood selection. otherwise, i would have saved a bit more and put my faith in a cue trader with a bit more reputation outside of here that would also charge a bit more.

the prices cue makers charge is very justified in my opinion. like anything, they need to make a living too. like john parris has handful's of staff, you think its easy for him to pay these staff if he were dishing out cues at only 150 pounds? there is clearly a need and thats the only way he can meet demands and survive in the modern industry, despite wat anyone might think. fact is, if it were easy to do, itd b 'easy money' and everyone would b doing it, but fact is, it isnt. its a time consuming skill, one that takes ages to get right.

Thanks. I hope you are not rushing me for your current custom productions We are working seriously on all of your shafts. Tough hours, but ended up like we may deliver even better shafts than your last team's 5 custom cues When I first asked my team to pick quality shafts for your projects, I told them that 'these shafts will go into serious tournaments', they were very worried, and cutting plenty of wood boards for the right shaft pieces. And finally they got really oustanding shafts for all of your current on-the-run projects

[BoBnoGG!n]

Thanks. I hope you are not rushing me for your current custom productions We are working seriously on all of your shafts. Tough hours, but ended up like we may deliver even better shafts than your last team's 5 custom cues When I first asked my team to pick quality shafts for your projects, I told them that 'these shafts will go into serious tournaments', they were very worried, and cutting plenty of wood boards for the right shaft pieces. And finally they got really oustanding shafts for all of your current on-the-run projects

Take all the time you need, you cant rush quality haha cant wait to see them, my friends r so excited haha

[JasonOwen]

Im always amazed at how Dave Brown at Craftsman does produce such good cues at the price they charge?
Not up with the pure class product you get from MW but still certainly make a good cue.
I think maybe they keep costs down by avoiding the bespoke custom made cues and going from 'on the shelf' models instead so they can have a production line set up and make in batches more than the likes of MW.

[Inoffthered]

Im always amazed at how Dave Brown at Craftsman does produce such good cues at the price they charge?
Not up with the pure class product you get from MW but still certainly make a good cue.
I think maybe they keep costs down by avoiding the bespoke custom made cues and going from 'on the shelf' models instead so they can have a production line set up and make in batches more than the likes of MW.

Not just MW, but also Trevor White, H&O, some JP's, Robin Cook etc (to name but a few), we're very fortunate in the UK to have so much choice.

[jim evans]

luck in finding a great cue

i think alot of people miss the point,you can have a smashing looking piece of ash or maple and some other woods looks good ,like earlier a ferrari or a good looking girl,and then add a realy nice looking butt multi splice or just plain ebony,still not forced to make it a great cue but add 1 of the top cue makers who might spend up to 20 hours playing around with that piece of wood to your specs and then it still only plays as good as you do on the night or day or game even,and its them hours that cost and raise the price,so my question is what makes a great cue

[CueAntW147]

so my question is what makes a great cue

There are many ways to define a great cue and different reasons behind it, it could be one that's old or antique that has survived the passage of time, but maybe can't be used as a playing cue.
It could be a new cue that has been made perfectly in every respect from the best materials.
But regardless of the reasons ( which will be different for all of us ) & whether its old or new, cheap or expensive or even who made it doesn't really matter..........what a makes a great cue to me is the one that just feels right when you pick it up and one you feel you can play your best snooker with whatever it is.

This is also the reason that for many of us until that special one that feels right is found the endless search goes on, the rest is down to luck........:snooker:

[mike.crowe]

i dont think some cuemakers charge enoughf to be honest !

you are paying for the labour not just the materials, and where some cues are mass produced to pretty mutch the same spec, all the top cue makers must have each and every cue done to exact and im sure demanding specs.

i have not got any idea of what time is involved in making a cue, or the amount of dust that is consumed in the process, but i would put my house on it, that if cues were made by "plumbers" and "boilers" repared by the cuemakers there would be a lot less people worrying about the boiler braking down in the winter, and a lot less people ordering new cues just in the serch for that special one ?

i have had over the years 3 x parris 3 x wooldridge and 3 trevor whites all made for me and not one was over priced in my opinion !

Hey Crispian, if you are being honest (and in your opinion) out of the cues you have had which cues have been made the best and felt the best quality??