Ferrule size does it matter?

[Slasher]

There are many times you will here the commentators express the difficulty of a particular shot because the player had to use a lot of side. If the deflection element was eliminated the players would be able to play these shots with much more consistency.
They often compromise on the shot because of this, so yes the standard of play can be improved by way of equipment improvements. just because the Ash cue with brass ferrule has been around such a long time is no reason to assume it is the best option.

[wayync]

6 or 7mm long seems to work well, if the wall thickness is decent it will still maintain the strength. It does not take much added end mass to push the CB further off the path, we have tried different ferrule lengths, thickness and materials. I play with a light weight synthetic furrule and the deflection is very minimal.

But what is the difference between one brass ferrule and the next? I assume all good cue makers use a standard type?

Would it affect the cue if I cut the ferrule or would it be possible to take the existing one off and replace it with a shorter ferrule?

[Slasher]

Common ones I have seen are either threaded or press fit, the press fit tend to have thinner walls and are lighter, I would just shorten it right on the cue but unless you have the tools is hard to get the top flush again. Just take it to a cue guy and he could mill it off in a minute.

[Slippy Shaft]

There is some good info here on the science of follow through, deflection etc.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...follow-through

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...tml#low_squirt

With best intentions ......

You know it's a funny thing, but if you gave me a cue that stopped the white ball from moving off course when playing with side, I probably wouldn't be able to play without having to relearn the game, and I mean that with all sincerity.


Snooker players make allowances for the movement, or as discussed in this thread 'deflection'.

An example would be that if I break off, I won't aim for the red I want to hit, but instead aim for the red behind it, if I'm playing with right hand side. This is because I know the white will set off left. The shorter the distance, and the less spin applied, the less I have to make allowances.

No matter what cue I use though, and what mass, regardless of where the extra mass is positioned, I can't stop the reaction that takes place regarding the object ball.

If you run the white along the balk line, and place an object ball in it's path, you will find that if you play the shot with side, the object ball will be forced to move in the opposite direction to which the side was applied.

This gives us 2 points for concern:

The deflection as some call it, and the consequences of side on the object ball upon collision. Your friend in the video doesn't discuss this as he can't change it no matter 'what' cue he uses.

It also means that in taking a shot, over various distance, we need to make several mathematical, if not geometrical equations, and not just one.

This is why it's not worth all the fuss worrying about deflection, in regards to a ferule, and trying to reduce it isn't necessarily a good thing, as it can be used to your advantage in many situations.

[wayync]

This is why it's not worth all the fuss worrying about deflection, in regards to a ferule, and trying to reduce it isn't necessarily a good thing, as it can be used to your advantage in many situations.

Then what are the advantages to having a bigger ferrule?

I know Terry mentioned bigger ferrules have more strength and chances of miscues are lowered.

I also tried putting side on with my 9mm ferrule and my 6mm ferrule and to be honest I couldn't even tell there was a difference at all in terms of deflection, if anything the 9mm ferrule seemed to give a better hit in general. I aimed the same and I hit the ball the same for both.

[nrage]

With best intentions ......

You know it's a funny thing, but if you gave me a cue that stopped the white ball from moving off course when playing with side, I probably wouldn't be able to play without having to relearn the game, and I mean that with all sincerity.

Agreed, totally. But if you did re-learn it, or were learning it from the start, it would be a little easier if you didn't have to compensate for deflection.

If you run the white along the balk line, and place an object ball in it's path, you will find that if you play the shot with side, the object ball will be forced to move in the opposite direction to which the side was applied.

This gives us 2 points for concern:

The deflection as some call it, and the consequences of side on the object ball upon collision. Your friend in the video doesn't discuss this as he can't change it no matter 'what' cue he uses.

It also means that in taking a shot, over various distance, we need to make several mathematical, if not geometrical equations, and not just one.

First some terms as I understand them, just so we're on the same page

Deflection - where the cue ball 'skews' left when I hit with right hand side (and vice-versa), it's a small change in the initial angle the white moves off on.

Swerve - where the path of the white curves as it travels up the table. created when playing with side, a higher butt elevation on the shot generates more, a level cue generates less.

The video I linked talks about both of these, but not the effect you mention which I would call "spin transfer" and the colstate edu guy has numerous videos and articles on it as well, see:
http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/b...les/index.html
(just search for spin transfer)

Spin transfer is where the white is spinning clockwise and induces a counter-clockwise spin on the object ball (or vice-versa), it can alter the angle the object ball leaves at, by a small amount.

And you're correct, even if you had a cue with no deflection you would still have to account for spin transfer, however.. the effect of spin transfer is typically much less than the effect of deflection and is more or less constant over distance, though it does wear off. It has more effect at slow collision speeds (where there is a fraction more contact time), it's all in the articles linked above

This is why it's not worth all the fuss worrying about deflection, in regards to a ferule, and trying to reduce it isn't necessarily a good thing, as it can be used to your advantage in many situations.

I can't think of a situation where deflection is an advantage, it's always just one more factor that needs to be taken into account. It's why coaches all recommend beginners avoid side spin.

The example you might be thinking of is when you're trying to swerve around a ball, you would (currently) aim around the obstructing ball by the amount required to miss it, but then compensate for the additional effect of deflection, and further compensate for the swerve effect over the distance of the shot, based on the power of the shot. If you can remove deflection from the equation you have one less thing to worry about.

Of course, if you were used to accounting for it, you would rather not have to re-learn how not to account for it, but that's a different problem and is specific to you, as opposed to the problem in general and for players who haven't yet learned to account for it.

[Slippy Shaft]

Then what are the advantages to having a bigger ferrule?

I know Terry mentioned bigger ferrules have more strength and chances of miscues are lowered.

I also tried putting side on with my 9mm ferrule and my 6mm ferrule and to be honest I couldn't even tell there was a difference at all in terms of deflection, if anything the 9mm ferrule seemed to give a better hit in general. I aimed the same and I hit the ball the same for both.

With the best will in the world Wayync it's difficult to discuss these matters in single posts without you being there to show personally, as we could write a book about the game of snooker as you know every time we discuss a single issue.

Each time I try to explain my opinion I find myself having to attempt to educate you on how to play properly in order to fully express it, and I'm not here to save the world, or to teach people to play, as that just becomes patronizing or condescending when I'm not being paid or even personally invited to do so.

I'm not going to try to justify my opinion over anyone elses either. My advice to you is don't cut your ferrule. Feel free to take advice elsewhere even if it is the opposite advice to mine.

I only joined here to bring peoples attention to a long forgotten tip brand, and my reasons for this were totally selfish, and have no intention of hanging around long term as that would put me in an awkward position.

I just thought I'd help a few guys out while I was here and put something back into the game.

Good luck with your snooker and hope you make the right decision.

[Slasher]

Here is a perfect example of why reducing deflection would increase accuracy. @10:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDw2g92TUUc

[trevs1]

There's an old question in snooker that asks who knows best: the guy who uses the cue or the guy that makes the cue?
When I read about guys talking about cue ball deflection, and manufacturers selling cues based on the amount their 'laminated' shafts give or don't give, I wonder how on earth guys have been knocking in century breaks since before many of us were born.

Too much manufacturing 'science' is causing snooker players headaches, or at least those who listen.

Those who can play snooker play snooker. Those who can't make cues (amongst other things). If someone can tell me the first cue maker to win the world title I'm all ears.

If you play a ball with right hand side the ball will be pushed slightly to the left, and the opposite happens if you play it with left hand side.

The amount depends on the distance the white travels before the spin wears off and gravity or impact takes effect, the amount of spin, the amount of follow through, and the amount of nap on the cloth, not to mention the direction across the table versus nap versus everything else.

The factor that has the 'least' effect on the white ball is the make up of the cue, the brand name of spectaces the player wears, or the size of the ferule.

If the size isn't to your taste, then cut some off, but that's the 'only' reason you should cut any off.

If in doubt, ask yourself how many hours your average luthier, or poster with 10,000 posts, spends on a snooker table, and how often they dream new ways of selling their product, or talking about it when they could be practising and perfecting their potting skills instead.

Don't get too sucked in.

One of the more interesting and articulately discussed threads on a cue related issue this.

Slippyshaft..... I quite like your posts so far on this topic, but the bits above in bold not so much.

My thoughts on those points above in bold.......

1st point = It depends on who the "person" in question is, and, what knowledge they may have.

2nd point = It's a little bit presumptuous to assume that a maker cannot be a player, or that a player cannot be a maker. It does not necessarily mean an individual has to be a World Champion to hold considerable knowledge on the particular sport they are involved in.