Ferrule Keeps Snapping Off

[ryanah147]

Would it be possible when your friend fitted the last ferrule that the lower blade on the ferrule cutter was protuding just a tiny bit and not created a perfect tenon. I have seen this happen on a few cues when the owner of the ferrule cutter sharpened the blades, and when putting them back the lower (horizontal) blade started to cut into the end of the tenon and weakening it. Result, if you play forceful power shots, the ferrule and tip will all break off.
Its worth looking into.

[deant1982]

If you're going to phone Tony glover, he's on holiday next week. Doesn't come back til a week on Monday. (spoke to him today)

[trevs1]

May I ask what personal experience you have of superglue 'destroying' wood?

I've never seen any evidence of this being the case and I'm curious to hear from anyone who has actually used it and seen a problem occur themselves.

(please, no input from people who merely repeat what they heard from someone else at some point in their life and pass it on relentlessly as a 'fact')

Also, another misconception, gel is only 'better' in the respect that it is easier to use and less likely that you'll get it all over the shaft and ferrule.

So, jrc, use whatever superglue you can lay your hands on for tips cos i've done that for over 25 years and I've not seen my ferrules snap off or any 'destruction' of wood occur.

Matt-10ant - sounds like a 'rogue' bit of wood that's 'dead' i.e. dried right out and is brittle.

I had this myself once, shaft actually seemed ok and looked fine but the ferrule kept snapping off. On close inspection, the wood was clearly very very dry inside. I tried all i could to save this shaft but ultimately it was just 'dead' and had to be binned.

Did glover fix it the first time?

Either way, phone glover, they are nice people and I'm sure will help solve your issue even if it means replacing it.

What he said..... Re: - Super glue.

[trevs1]

Would it be possible when your friend fitted the last ferrule that the lower blade on the ferrule cutter was protuding just a tiny bit and not created a perfect tenon. I have seen this happen on a few cues when the owner of the ferrule cutter sharpened the blades, and when putting them back the lower (horizontal) blade started to cut into the end of the tenon and weakening it. Result, if you play forceful power shots, the ferrule and tip will all break off.
Its worth looking into.

What he said...... Re: - Ferrulling tool, but also.....

Have threaded ferrules been used at all.???....If so, it could be the case that the wooden spiggot has been left a little large, and when threading a ferrule onto the shaft, too much force is required to tighten it, and in doing so, damages the fibres of the timber slightly.

Apart from using threaded ferrules, or the seat for a ferrule being cut a little too deeply into the little timber spiggot left on top of the shaft, could it be that the ferrule used has a thick side wall.??? This would mean that the timber spiggot at the end of the shaft is very narrow, and, weaker than is maybe ideal. Does the person using the cue give the ball a hell of a whack also.???

More than likely one of the above.

[Matt-10ant]

Well what can i say im no expert so i wouldnt know how to answer to the above answer trev but you are probably right with your suggestions and what could have caused this and yeah he can hit the ball hard sometimes so that probably doesnt help also he has a new cue at the moment so i dont know if he is going to get the glover fixed any time soon.

Thanks for all the input.

[poolqjunkie]

Just want to add that in my opinion that tweenten cement is total rubbish and should never be used to glue anything on a cue.
I dont use super glue anymore but have been using that for 15+ years and never really had any problem. I have known people using super glue on all kinds of expensve cues with no problem at all. If the tip comes off it is most likley because the ferrule was not faced well rather than a glue problem.
I think dry wood, and may be the cutter cutting the bottom of the tenon too deep could be the cause of it breaking (but he might not be doing the ferrule with a ferrule cutter)--may have nothing to do with Tony Glover as the cue was purchaed second hand and who knows what was done to it before.
Trevor raised a very good point about threaded ferrule, I never really thought about that but it makes perfect sense. Thank you. While twisting the ferrule to the tenon the wood fibre might have been damaged if the fit was way too tight.

[golferson123]

by personal experience i can only say after 30+ years of playing, making and repairing cues i know how super glue works!. it activates on contact with moisture either in the air or on contact.if there is no moisture in the timber it soaks into the timber and then hardens making the timber brittle. when putting a tip on your cue i lick my finger and dab the end of the cue, this supplies the moisture and prevents the glue soaking in the wood.

[deant1982]

by personal experience i can only say after 30+ years of playing, making and repairing cues i know how super glue works!. it activates on contact with moisture either in the air or on contact.if there is no moisture in the timber it soaks into the timber and then hardens making the timber brittle. when putting a tip on your cue i lick my finger and dab the end of the cue, this supplies the moisture and prevents the glue soaking in the wood.

You do realise you're basically arguing about the "damage" super glue does to a cue, with two of the best cue makers in this galaxy?? I've been using super glue for about 15 years on tips with no issues ever, and I'd take the advice of Trevor White or mike wooldridge over (no offence) a garage cue repair man every day of the week. Not just them, but Airin (poolqjunkie) also makes cues, and he's pro super glue as well...
If you feel like that, then that's your prerogative, but I think you're on a loser trying to argue what it does or doesn't do with mike or Trevor. They have forgotten more about wood than most "experts" will ever know!

[golferson123]

no offence taken! you dont know me from adam so dont call me a garage repair whatever! i have no problem with superglue on tips. and your contribution to superglue fors and againsts is what again?

[deant1982]

There is no problem using super glue to stick a tip on, or even a ferrule. It doesn't damage wood as claimed. And that isn't just my opinion, it is also the same opinion from the top cue makers on the planet.
You're right, I dont know you from Adam, but I do know of/have heard of most of the top cue makers, and if you have been repairing them for 30 odd years, it isn't professionally, hence garage cue hobbyist. It wasn't a personal dig bud, it was simply these guys do and see things like this all the time, and use glue every day, so I'd take their word over yours on what is fine to use on a snooker cue.

Ps, Airin, I agree. Tweetens cement is crap!

[golferson123]

first thing first, it wasnt professionally? how on earth do you know that!.i have used adhesives all my life not only in woodworking, which by by the way is what this topic is all about, but in in engineering,and my comments are based on that, experiance! its what you should base your comments on.if i am not the best cue maker in the galaxy or indeed this planet or god forgive my own shed then that is something i will have to live with

[deant1982]

Dude, chill out. All I'm saying is that I, or anyone I know that has ever used super glue on a tip or ferrule has never had it caused damage to the cue, or had it result in the ferrule snapping off. And these guys are also engineers, fully qualified engineers at rolls Royce...
If you think it damages the wood, that's your opinion, but it isn't one shared by the top cuemakers in the world, 2 of whom are members of this forum, and have both categorically stated it doesn't cause harm. Fair enough it doesn't help if the wood is "dead". It more than likely does make it brittle, but for a normal cue, it doesnt cause harm.
My point about you not being a top cuemaker wasn't meant personally, it was simply if a top maker told me it causes no damage, I'd take their word for it over someone else who isn't classed similar. I've got nothing against you, as like you said, I don't know you from Adam.

[poolqjunkie]

Well, for the record, I am not exactly pro super glue on ferrule. I am just saying I have been using it for tips for many years and had no problem I could recall, and I have known lots of cue makers who have used it on tips and also had no problem. Most cue makers I know use Loctite but there are a few brands that I have found to work very well with glueing tips besides Loctite.
I do realize that moisture can act as a catalyst to super glue. And I also am aware that super glue sometimes soak into the wood and also the bottom of the tip especially if it takes a long time to set.
I have many super glue here in the shop all with various viscosity--some as thin as water and some are like syrup. I usually store them in the fridge. They are meant for different applications and I also have a super solvent that can be used to dissolve super glue very effectively. I have used many kinds of super glue from many different companies for many years. I no longer use them but from my experience sometimes some materials do not seem to glue as well as others with super glue (e.g. the cheap house cue plastic ferrule does not usually work too well with laminated pig skin tips) but I have never noticed any damaged done to the wood. If a material does not glue very well I will seal the surface with super glue then glue again, which usually works very well.
From what I understand, some people prefer gel over liquid because they feel that gel will not soak into the tip and the ferrule as easily, which they believe can help the tip to glue better. But if I have to use a very thin glue and I have nothing else to work with and I am gluing a tip such as Elk master I would just apply a thin layer of glue to the bottom of the tip first, blow a breath to the glue to help it to set faster (moisture accelerates CA glues), then sand off the bottom once the glue is set and then glue normally. What this does is that I am essentially gluing super glue to super glue and the super glue "sealant" I apply on the tip in the beginning prevents the glue to sip into the bottom of the tip.
I am not sure if super glue can be soaked into the wood to make it brittle. I would be very interested to know how you know that to be so...
I personally use epoxy now for my tips and my ferrules are threaded which is also glued by epoxy (although I am sure any super glue should hold it since it is threaded). I am using epoxy because I am not a big fan of the brittle crystal looking residue formed by some super glue when it is dried. I also do not like how super glue reacts with oil and water.
When the epoxy gel I use dries it forms a rubbery layer between the tip and the ferrule, which I prefer over the more brittle crystalized looking substance. But I need to stress that this is simply a matter of personal preference. I do not know of any proof (not yet at least) that super glue can damage wood. I know a lot of cues are finished over with super glue in the US; when I bought my wood a lot of them are sealed with CA super glue to prevent them from cracking. I have also seen wood workers sealing their wood with super glue before they spray clear coats on top--although epoxy is used more often for this application.
I dont mean to start a fight with anyone here. I agree with Mike that if you want to put a tip on a ferrule any super glue should work and I also agree that I have never noticed any damage done to the wood.
But if you can provide any data/info as to why super glue could damage wood I am all ears. And I mean it sincerely.
Thank you.
P.S. I also would like to add that I personally feel CA glue does not offer as strong a bond as epoxy, but for a tip it is usually fine. With a ferrule if it is a pressure fit ferrule I would suggest using epoxy (it is because epoxy offers a stronger bond) but if it is threaded I would say either is fine. With US pool cues, most cue makers do not use super glue to glue on their ferrules. Some materials do not bond very well with wood via CA glue and also super glue usually leaves a line at the bottom of the ferrule (the junction between a white ferrule and the wood at the shoulder) but this is never a problem with snooker cue customers. With US pool cues when using epoxy you can also mix it with a dye to blend the glue line in while super glue usually dries very bright and is more brittle when set making it harder to blend.
P.S.S. If the ferrule comes off with the tenon and you do not want the cue to be shortened I have done this in the past on some US pool cues which I would like to share here.
Bore a hole in the shaft, tap it and then build a small dowel and also thread it then glue and thread this dowel to the shaft. I made sure the dowel had a hole in the middle from which epoxy can escape through--this hole will then be filled by the epoxy coming through. You can also leave the bore you drill in the shaft a bit deeper for the glue to go. I have only done this on bigger sized tips such as 13mm, never tried it on snooker cues. Just thought someone might be interested to know how it was done.

[MikeWooldridge]

one thing about me - i keep an open mind until i know different.

my own experience shows no evidence of wood damage whatsoever and i ask the question again to golferson123 - please share your experience of the damage you have seen occurring to wood when using superglues. i am genuinely interested.

i think we all know superglues reacts with moisture and common sense should tell us to avoid the use of the very thin stuff for two reasons:

1) it's bloody lethal! runs all over the place, and usually ends up on your fingers/hands at some point invariably temporarily sticking you to the thing you're gluing or the workbench you dripped some on. sometimes, whole forearms have had to be gently prised away but tearing of the skin can be avoided if you immediately 'disengage' yourself...

2) it's bloody lethal!

of course, it does have uses, like smearing on toilet seats. but that's another subject...

like airin, i too use various grades, and this is the key to getting the most out of cyanoacrylates. horses for courses as the say.

anyway, back to the topic. i agree with everything trevor and airin have added.

i assumed that glover had referruled the cue, and i'm certain they would do it well. which is why i suggested it was possibly a 'bad' bit of wood.

but there is a strong possibility it was not done well by the repairer so my first advice would be get it checked and referruled by glover regardless.

if it goes again - my first guess was right