Is Robert Osborne Right?

[old school]

Information is the key,what many people forget is that today a quick search on the internet will reveal dozens of cue makers whereas in the past it was word of mouth or local knowledge or newspaper/magazine adverts.In a way this leads to localisation of cues.i.e. in my area there are a lot of Wilshaw "bespoke" cues,Leeds area Dave Brown,East Anglia,Coutts,Robin etc,South H&O,Parris etc.This happens because unless you are familiar with someones work ,people tend to "buy locally",we sometimes dont realise how lucky we are today to be so well connected via the information superhighway.Two perfect examples are Tom Gauthier and yourself, why do you think (apart from limited output) that there are so few Gauthiers outside Canada & the States (apart from collectors) answer ,limited knowledge of his work and now look at what the interest is.As for you, imagine setting up 30 years ago,no TSF,no website,no net ,how many cues would we get in the UK and would we be even aware of your existence ? To answer your question about availability in the 80s,heres my take on it.You have to separate customising from bespoke.If you had a donor (or the "cue doctor" did) and you wanted it altering/customising e.g. ferrule and tip size change,re-weighting,re-splicing,lengthening etc it was relatively easy,a lot of snooker establishments had " a man " to do this (I think TW started in a workshop behind a snooker hall ?) but true "bespoke" where you specify the cue exactly i.e.dimensions,taper,woods used etc was much more difficult because unless you were lucky enough to live in an area near to a cuemaker of repute then how do you find out where to go in the first place.In reality 30 years ago may as well have been the " Dark Ages" compared to now.Hope this helps,food for thought anyway.

[deant1982]

In the early 80s there were not that many custom cue makers, is that right?
Probably just Keith Auld, Will Hunt, then John Parris...may be Garrison as well?
What was it like back then?

Hi Airin.
If you are referring to Dennis Garrison (Aeon cues) I don't think he actually made "bespoke" cues, certainly not in the 80's.
Aeon were set up at the end of the 80's (around 88-89) and initially were making basic cues and lower budget club player cues. They evolved and their quality increased, as people noticed that even the cheaper cues were good playing cues. They started hand splicing, including Garrison's own Spiroloc joint (I think he patented this), and the cues kept getting better. I believe they also used to make cues for H+O in the 90's, but the issue Aeon had was although a lot of local players brought one, at the time there was no internet and they found advertising difficult. Once the initial boom period was over and everyone local had a cue, there wasn't a lot of call for them, and they went out of business. (also, he wasn't helped when a man who Dennis taught to make and repair cues left and started undercutting him as he was officially "retired" so did it for spending money with no overheads to pay).
If he did make a cue to a customers specs a la MW, TW etc, it would have been towards the end of their production.

[poolqjunkie]

Thank you for the info...once again. It is really appreciated.
Yes, without the Internet one would probably have to rely on advertising in magazines (if there was any), may be newspaper, and through mostly word of mouths--and pro endorsement, which was probably the most powerful (e.g. Jimmy White). I suspect H&O became so sort after in Asia because of Jimmy White being invited there to do exhibition and they saw what he could do with his cue both in person and on TV. Even to this day, no other plain ebony cue can fetch the kind of cash that a H&O can in Asia.
The lack of Internet/promotion opportunity situation was the same in Canada, too. We back in the "dark age of cues" did not have much chance to try a bespoke UK cue, unless someone in our "pool hall" (we call them pool hall even when there were snooker) happened to have one of those cues. Most of the cue making knowledge came from Brunswick and we were heavily influenced by the Amerians, hence the preference of two piece cues (half jointed cues were called two piece, as opposed to one piece which were basically all house cues, we had no 3/4, and no ash, in the early days). Most people did not know what a hand spliced cue was like in the early days in Canada. For a long time, players believed a cue with a solid ebony butt was the best. In today's term, these "best" cues would be called machine spliced cues.
I saw a gentleman with a Gauthier cue which he paid about $1000 USD for. It is a plain ebony 3/4 cue with 4 sharp points. I mentioned the term "machine spliced" and he got very offended. He said his cue was hand made by Tom hence not machined spliced. I did not say anything else any more once I heard that--but I am sure if I show the picture of said cue here, you will all call it machine spliced as the prongs were all sharp and the shaft ends at the junction where the solid piece of ebony starts. Thanks to the Internet we have much more UK bespoke cues in Canada now.
I totally agree the Internet has changed the way customer from all over the world are exposed to cues made by many different cue makers.
Since this thread is about the Asian buyers, I want to mention that I heard many Asian buyers were going to the UK to buy cues in the late 80's and early 90's from Hong Kong. They mostly purchased lots of John Parris and H&O back in those days. The lack of Internet/language barrier might have made ordering a cue from the UK difficult for some buyers but the traders in HK were already ordering in bulk via phone or in person.
As I said before I feel that the a lot of Asians have the appreciation for a well made UK cue as a piece of collectible and artwork and they did not mind to go through the trouble to order it and wait for it. Customers in HK were willing to pay top dollars to buy them even in the late 80's early 90's. Today, perhaps one can say the Chinese in China are just bringing to the next level what the Hong Kong Chinese have been doing for 20+ years.

[lloouu]

Thank you for the info...once again. It is really appreciated.
Yes, without the Internet one would probably have to rely on advertising in magazines (if there was any), may be newspaper, and through mostly word of mouths--and pro endorsement, which was probably the most powerful (e.g. Jimmy White). I suspect H&O became so sort after in Asia because of Jimmy White being invited there to do exhibition and they saw what he could do with his cue both in person and on TV. Even to this day, no other plain ebony cue can fetch the kind of cash that a H&O can in Asia.
The lack of Internet/promotion opportunity situation was the same in Canada, too. We back in the "dark age of cues" did not have much chance to try a bespoke UK cue, unless someone in our "pool hall" (we call them pool hall even when there were snooker) happened to have one of those cues. Most of the cue making knowledge came from Brunswick and we were heavily influenced by the Amerians, hence the preference of two piece cues (half jointed cues were called two piece, as opposed to one piece which were basically all house cues, we had no 3/4, and no ash, in the early days). Most people did not know what a hand spliced cue was like in the early days in Canada. For a long time, players believed a cue with a solid ebony butt was the best. In today's term, these "best" cues would be called machine spliced cues.
I saw a gentleman with a Gauthier cue which he paid about $1000 USD for. It is a plain ebony 3/4 cue with 4 sharp points. I mentioned the term "machine spliced" and he got very offended. He said his cue was hand made by Tom hence not machined spliced. I did not say anything else any more once I heard that--but I am sure if I show the picture of said cue here, you will all call it machine spliced as the prongs were all sharp and the shaft ends at the junction where the solid piece of ebony starts. They also did not understand that a butterfly spliced cue is technically not a hand splcied cue. In the old days, people thought a cue with a solid ebony butt was the best, and they had no idea what machine spliced/hand spliced meant. This was largely due to a lack of exposure to hand spliced cues in the early days. Thanks to the Internet we have much more UK bespoke cues in Canada now.
I totally agree the Internet has changed the way customer from all over the world are exposed to cues made by many different cue makers.
Since this thread is about the Asian buyers, I want to mention that I heard many Asian buyers were going to the UK to buy cues in the late 80's and early 90's from Hong Kong. They mostly purchased lots of John Parris and H&O back in those days. The lack of Internet/language barrier might have made ordering a cue from the UK difficult for some buyers but the traders in HK were already ordering in bulk via phone or in person.
As I said before I feel that the a lot of Asians have the appreciation for a well made UK cue as a piece of collectible and artwork and they did not mind to go through the trouble to order it and wait for it. Customers in HK were willing to pay top dollars to buy them even in the late 80's early 90's. Today, perhaps one can say the Chinese in China are just bringing to the next level what the Hong Kong Chinese have been doing for 20+ years.

Friom my understanding Tom Guathier cue with such price not because it's a hand made or machine splice issue. It's because he passed away and those existing cue in the market are turned to be a collectable item. Plus Cliff Thorburn still using it in daily practice. The cue is nice, and I heard that Tom was not making the cue from stretch. Usually he picked some existing cues, re-tape and modified them. And the playability was surprisingly good, as a 2 pcs cue.
For now, most of the player preferred to use the 3/4 or one piece cue instead of 2 pcs. This bring up a question to me, is there any top cue maker focus on making a top quality 2 pcs cue? Anyone know that?

[old school]

Coutts,Wilshaw,Robin,Craftsman & Robert Osbourne ( Blue,Green and Blackplate) will all make cues in a centre jointed configuration,at least they did last time I looked into it,whether or not you consider this as " focusing on making a quality 2 pc" or as an option when ordering a custom cue,I dont know.As for Guathier this raises the "customising" vs " bespoke " issue/question ,I raised earlier.There is of course no doubt that his cues have accrued value,in light of his passing and the scarcity of his cues,no doubt whatsoever.

[circle]

One Sunday morning back in 1990, I was doing some solo practice with an Aeon cue that I had borrowed. I was the only person in the playing area when I heard the door open, I looked over and saw someone wearing a hat and leather jacket. This person then walked over to where I was playing and asked if he could have a go with 'my cue' - Luckily, before I said NO - I realised this stranger was none other than Alex Higgins (he had done an exibition in the area the previous night) We had a brief chat then I gave Alex the cue, he promptly made 22 - had a good look at the cue and commented on what a fine cue and piece of wood it was - he then adjourned to the bar. I had to agree with him, as this cue was one of the finest I have ever seen. However, its snooker career was literally cut short by an 'amateur' cue doctor. At the time this cue retailed for £140 - Bargain!

[poolqjunkie]

The original discussion was about if Robert sells all his cues to traders in China and other cue makers follow him then it would be bad for the cue industry. I am just wondering do you think it would have been bad for the cue business had the Chinese offered to buy out Aeon's cues at a time when they were struggling?
What do you think?

[deant1982]

Probably wouldn't have been a bad thing. A lot of Chinese players would be very happy players, and after the initial storm had passed and the Internet came about, they would have gone from strength to strength. I think there is no doubt that several cue makers have benefitted massively from the Internet and the worldwide range it has, and the aeon cues were known as good playing cues, which would have given them a good reputation, so no doubt they the Chinese buying large orders would have been a good thing.
From what I understand of Dennis garrison though, he was a good cue maker and very good engineer, but not a very astute businessman.

[poolqjunkie]

Friom my understanding Tom Guathier cue with such price not because it's a hand made or machine splice issue. It's because he passed away and those existing cue in the market are turned to be a collectable item. Plus Cliff Thorburn still using it in daily practice. The cue is nice, and I heard that Tom was not making the cue from stretch. Usually he picked some existing cues, re-tape and modified them. And the playability was surprisingly good, as a 2 pcs cue.
For now, most of the player preferred to use the 3/4 or one piece cue instead of 2 pcs. This bring up a question to me, is there any top cue maker focus on making a top quality 2 pcs cue? Anyone know that?

Cliff was using an Adam in England when he made his infamous 147 but he is playing with a Gauthier cue now. Big Bill was using a Gauthier in the UK.

Some Gauthier cues (his earlier cues) were mostly conversions, but his later cues were made from scratch. He made a lot of butterfly spliced and machine spliced cues from scratch. Most of them half jointed but he made about 7 or so 3/4 cues in his life time. I have never seen any 1 piece cues made by him. Most of his cues were very simple and basic. Back then on the West coast if you wanted a nice cue you either play with a Brunswick Trophy or a Gauthier. There weren't much choices around.

There was another cue maker called Glen Sullivan who was also making 2 piece cues in BC. He also passed away but his cues are not as collectible as Gauthier's.

I believe Gauthier made 2 piece cues because of the way his lathe was set up and because back in the days 2 piece cues were the fashion in Canada. Pretty much all cues he ever made were 2 piece except 6-7 cues that were 3/4. He had got the formula down for his 2 piece cues. In my opinion, his 2 piece cues were made better and hit better than his 3/4 cues, but that is just my opinion.

His conversions are not as collectible as the cues he made from scrath in general but that does not mean his conversions are inferior cues. I tried one conversion from Gauthier which hit really well. It was a maple cue with a red joint sandwiched with two black joint rings, converted from an old Devonshire house cue. That was the best Gauthier cue I have ever tried. He made some cues with a white or beige joint with two black rings, but most of his later work featured the beige joint without the black rings.

It is hard to put a Gauthier cues next to say a Mike Wooldridge cue and compare them. Tom did not have much and he had no one to learn from. All he had around him at the time were Brunswick and later on Dufferin cues as well as some American pool cues. There was no better cue maker around to show him anything. I doubt he had ever seen a Trevor white or Mike Wooldridge cue in his life time. He was a legend in Canada because he was a pioneer.

Some other cue makers in Canada were known for their 2 piece cues such as Marcel. Marcel's cues are probably more popular in ON and QC, while Gauthier is more so in BC and AB. There is also a new cue maker in QC called Bernard who makes cues in the Marcel style.

If you are looking for a Gauthier or a Marcel, contact Montreal Leo, he is a forum member here.

[poolqjunkie]

Probably wouldn't have been a bad thing. A lot of Chinese players would be very happy players, and after the initial storm had passed and the Internet came about, they would have gone from strength to strength. I think there is no doubt that several cue makers have benefitted massively from the Internet and the worldwide range it has, and the aeon cues were known as good playing cues, which would have given them a good reputation, so no doubt they the Chinese buying large orders would have been a good thing.
From what I understand of Dennis garrison though, he was a good cue maker and very good engineer, but not a very astute businessman.

Yes, that is how I feel, too. We would have another great cue makers among us, and players worldwide could still enjoy his wonderful cues.
Besides, given all these years he should be even better than he was, but I guess we will never know.

[deant1982]

Although they did some "budget" type cues, his hand made cues were not cheap, even back in the day. I think mine should have been £250 when it was new 20 years ago, so they would have been around the £500 mark now I think.

[poolqjunkie]

Although they did some "budget" type cues, his hand made cues were not cheap, even back in the day. I think mine should have been £250 when it was new 20 years ago, so they would have been around the £500 mark now I think.

Yours is not a plain cue if I remember correctly, right? It has mutli snakewood splices and was probably one top end cue from him I would think.

[deant1982]

You're quite correct Airin, 4 snakewood splices on mine, but from what I was told it was made by one of his staff for him as a birthday present. A team mate of mine uses one of the lower end "budget" cues, but even that is a good cue. It's a machine rosewood spliced cue that looks very plain, but plays well. The only thing I don't like about it is the grain doesn't line up at the centre join, which is a bit of a faux pas. It was originally made as a one piece then jointed by aeon but not lined up correctly.

[JasonOwen]

Dean,
I have a full original Aeon 1994 price list with all the cue names, specs and descriptions here.
Also have a sale sheet of the lower ranged cues and a full page ad from an old Anthony Bridge catalogue.
I did have the sales sheet from the top range cues but gave that to the buy who brought an Aeon cue from me, it was the Special cue which had the numbered brass front splice.

PM me your email and I will send pics of it to you.

[arbitrage]

[QUOTE=JasonOwen;603609]Dean,
I have a full original Aeon 1994 price list with all the cue names, specs and descriptions here.
Also have a sale sheet of the lower ranged cues and a full page ad from an old Anthony Bridge catalogue.
I did have the sales sheet from the top range cues but gave that to the buy who brought an Aeon cue from me, it was the Special cue which had the numbered brass front splice.

jason, welcome to HK: