what is throw exactly

[sanman]

the word "throw" comes into phrases especially when intentional sides and shaft stiffness and ferrules are discuused. The cues I play with are generally stiff and I am not a person who plays excessive sides of the white ball. When i do play sides especially on a long pot and I play sides softly I sometimes notice the white ball arcing gently before hitting the object ball and not hitting where i aimed at. This is not throw I would assume. I would assume throw to be the result of the flex of a shaft when hitting the white ball. The effect would be more pronounced the harder you strike the white. The is because the harder one hits the white with intentional sides the more likely the shaft is likely to flex in the same direction one is trikeing the cueball(ie either right or left) causing the cue ball to travel slightly off line in the opposite direction to the side the cue bll is struck( if you play right sides the the cue ball moves slightly left).

What i wish to know is how the various properties of a cue causes this phenomenon. Shaft flex/rigidity I can easily understand. I find it difficult to understand a ferrule causing significant "throw". I would think that a tip would be more likely culprit to cause this. Assume that I am completely ignorant, which i may be, on this matter. i would like to hear what people have to say on this phenomenon.

[The Doctor]

Throw or deflection, is the path the cue ball takes when striking side spin. Most players will look for a cue that has the least deflection, so as to not have to chance their aiming point too much when using side spin.
I has been widely accepted that a cue with a larger tip will throw more than one with a smaller tip. There also seems to be a belief that the thinner the material used on the ferrule, the less throw one should get too.

[nrage]

You might find this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7b...AXpxoPQwvwNb0=

Essentially I think it's a case of "for every action(force) there is an equal and opposite reaction(force)" and also to do with inertia and mass. My physics education isn't advanced/formal enough to explain it 100% correctly but I'll give it my best shot.

I believe the more mass the cue tip has, relative to the ball, the less the tip moves and the more the ball does. In detail, there is a certain amount of force involved in the contact, and an equal and opposite amount of force in reaction. This reaction force causes motion in the cue tip and ball, based on the mass of each. So, the heavier the cue tip, the less it moves and the more it moves the ball - creating more throw. The lighter the cue tip, the more the tip moves and the less the ball moves - meaning less throw.

To get even more detailed..

The reaction force is a vector, with a direction and power. The direction is perpendicular to the surface of the white at the contact point, so when the cue strikes the middle of the white it points straight back down the cue. But, if you strike to the side of center the reaction force is slightly to the side of the cue. The further out on the white you strike, the further to the side it points.

This force vector can be broken down into it's component parts, two new vectors, one which represents the force straight back down the cue, and one which represents the force to the side. You can draw this as a right angled triangle where the long side is the original force vector and the other two are the component parts. The shortest/sideways force is the one which participates in the throw equation, it pushes the cue to the side and it's equal and opposite force pushes the ball in the opposite direction.

[thelongbomber]

It's fundamental physics in that for every reaction there is an opposite and equal reaction. I'm exaggerating here, but If you have a 50oz cue ball, and a 12oz cue, then it's the 12oz cue that will bend more and compensate for the tip/ball reaction taking place because it's less in mass overall compared to our overweight cue ball. Think of a train hitting a car. The car bends and gets thrown offline, while the train being heavier does not.

Cue makers that understand all this will design a shaft in such a way that it flexes nicely for the majority of shots that a player could play. If a cue maker makes a shaft too stiff, then the player is likely to experience too much cue ball throw because the shaft isn't bending and flexing as it should.

Now, if you were to exaggerate the weight of a ferrule, let's say adding 20oz to the tip end of the cue, then it's safe to presume that this end mass makes the cue less likely to deflect thus causing the cue ball to deflect more (again because that ferrule end mass adds to the overall weight of the cue and also is a more predominant force as it's nearer the tip end). Lighter ferrules are generally good for this reason. This explains why some cue owners are very specific about the amount of brass they want to see on their cue.

As a rule of thumb, in every case of using side, both the cue ball will deflect (understood here by a cue having too much "throw"), and the shaft will bend. It's nearly impossible for only one of the above two to occur. Both the cue shaft and the cue ball compensate for the use of side. Using some cursory examples, a whippy cue may compensate 80% while the cue ball compensates 20% and visa versa for the stiff shaft.

Worth noting, an American cue maker, Predator, some years ago created a pool shaft that removes a lot of cue ball throw. Throw is an issue with American pool because it's generally played as a side spin game (the table surface is smaller so you have to create angles with spin off cushions). Predator achieved this by using a stiff and predictable shaft material (laminated hard rock maple), then tapering it with an American pro taper (think wine bottle with an extra long straight neck), then used a light plastic/macardin ferrule, and then they hollowed out a portion of the maple near the tip end. All this makes the tip end very light, which thus makes the shaft very "bendy" and whippy, but in a predictable way (because it's laminated). Thus, the cue ball stays more online, while the shaft flexes offline.

With all this said, you can dramatically change your cue characteristics by adding/removing weight which increases/decreases cue ball throw respectively (because you are changing total mass of one object hitting another). Or by increasing/decreasing tip size which increases/decreases cue ball throw respectively. Larger tip sizes cause more tip surface to make contact which increases the tip "grip" which increases the cue ball being sent offline because at moment of impact the larger tip is spending more time on the cue ball. This explains why UK pool players use tiny tips on traditional cues (8-9mm) whereas American players use large tip sizes (12-14mm) but with Predator-type shafts and Pro tapers.

On a side note, in regards to the train/car accident mass theory explained above, you can use this same principle when learning to judge a two-ball plant that isn't set: the cue ball and the first object ball at moment of impact is the train which pushes the "car" (the last object ball) into the line you intend. That's why a two-ball frozen plant is played opposite to what you think.

Phew!

[thelongbomber]

You might find this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7b...AXpxoPQwvwNb0=

Essentially I think it's a case of "for every action(force) there is an equal and opposite reaction(force)" and also to do with inertia and mass. My physics education isn't advanced/formal enough to explain it 100% correctly but I'll give it my best shot.

I believe the more mass the cue tip has, relative to the ball, the less the tip moves and the more the ball does. In detail, there is a certain amount of force involved in the contact, and an equal and opposite amount of force in reaction. This reaction force causes motion in the cue tip and ball, based on the mass of each. So, the heavier the cue tip, the less it moves and the more it moves the ball - creating more throw. The lighter the cue tip, the more the tip moves and the less the ball moves - meaning less throw.

To get even more detailed..

The reaction force is a vector, with a direction and power. The direction is perpendicular to the surface of the white at the contact point, so when the cue strikes the middle of the white it points straight back down the cue. But, if you strike to the side of center the reaction force is slightly to the side of the cue. The further out on the white you strike, the further to the side it points.

This force vector can be broken down into it's component parts, two new vectors, one which represents the force straight back down the cue, and one which represents the force to the side. You can draw this as a right angled triangle where the long side is the original force vector and the other two are the component parts. The shortest/sideways force is the one which participates in the throw equation, it pushes the cue to the side and it's equal and opposite force pushes the ball in the opposite direction.

haha... u beat me by 3 minutes. Doh! Nrage explains it nicely also.

[old school]

Sanman , there was an excellent thread on 23/3/12 based on ferrule length that has relevance to what you are asking.p.s. O Min one piece still going strong.

[ace man]

For snooker I use very light 479 gram Trevor White cue, 9.55mm tip size. To be honest, it doesn't throw much at all, in fact on the opening break shot I aim a bit fuller into the bottom red as there will be slight swerve effect over that much distance. I prefer it that way and do not like pointing the cue away from balls. Sort of similar behavior to Predator which I use for US pool. However, change of cloth type, humidity level, distance between object ball and cue ball...things change and you need to adjust.
I don't think there will ever be a cue out there which could help with technical problem. With unwanted side for example, I think cues that don't throw much punish you just as much as those that throw a lot. If you put unwanted side and still pot a ball then that was just a lucky shot.

[sanman]

Is that the one piece u bought of hotpot? Beautiful machine spliced cue that. And one of the best I ever played with. Pity it was 57 inch as I play with a 59 inch

[old school]

It is the very same cue , considering the known history of the cue , it is amazingly still absolutely " gun barrel " straight. I bought it because I figured that if it hadnt moved or warped , in the conditions it was kept in in the Far East , then it would never move and I was right.Great cue and believe it or not I have thought of extending it myself, but I have not done so yet in case I ruin the " feel " of this cue.Interesting thread when combined with what MW is trying to acheive.Mike did comment in the post I mentioned ref , ferrule length as regards tip mass and deflection.

[sanman]

It is the very same cue , considering the known history of the cue , it is amazingly still absolutely " gun barrel " straight. I bought it because I figured that if it hadnt moved or warped , in the conditions it was kept in in the Far East , then it would never move and I was right.Great cue and believe it or not I have thought of extending it myself, but I have not done so yet in case I ruin the " feel " of this cue.Interesting thread when combined with what MW is trying to acheive.Mike did comment in the post I mentioned ref , ferrule length as regards tip mass and deflection.

i felt same way about that cue

very nice shaft with very straight grain on it, although no nice looking arrows. It was one of the best machine spliced cues I ever played with and like I said pity it wasnt longer cos that one was a keeper. as for the issue of throw there is very little mentioned about the tip with regards to throw and my gues is that the tip in some cases may be the biggest factor contributing to throw on a cue ball

[Saint Michael]

what is throw exactly

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