Was the wood in older cues better than today?

[andyjevans]

Is there any reason to think that if you buy an older cue the wood will be better? Did they use better stocks of wood in previous decades? Was it better dried?

Are some of the woods used in older cues - maple, hornbeam, pear, service and so on - worth buying to play with rather than just collect?

Does an older cue benefit from decades of settling and maturing?

Interested in all these questions. And was there a particular decade or period of cue manufacture where the general run of cues - not just the handmade ones - had good quality wood?

Andy Evans

[perpetualboredom]

Is there any reason to think that if you buy an older cue the wood will be better? Did they use better stocks of wood in previous decades? Was it better dried?

Are some of the woods used in older cues - maple, hornbeam, pear, service and so on - worth buying to play with rather than just collect?

Does an older cue benefit from decades of settling and maturing?

Interested in all these questions. And was there a particular decade or period of cue manufacture where the general run of cues - not just the handmade ones - had good quality wood?

Andy Evans

Good quality ash is getting very hard to find these days I understand! I was speaking to Dave at craftsman and he has to crawl over huge piles of boards to find anything of good quality.

I was involed indirectly in the wood trade through dealing in railway sleepers in a past life.. and the new regulations around 'sustainable sources' FSC certification etc made it very hard to source good quality timbers (believe much of the Ash hitting the UK is now FSC conformed). Where previously timber was cut from huge old growth trees, it now comes from 'wet' plantation trees which just isnt as good.

Imagine the same thing is happening to all timbers.

[cueman]

Very interesting subject and one I'd love to hear some of the experienced cue makers answer.

IMO I think its likely that older cues were made from better quality wood, simply because there was more of it about. Not only that but as most cues were made here in the UK and from only a handful of cue makers, that the quality of craftsmanship was better, it seemed like more pride was taken into work years ago, whereas now everything seems to be made for quick and easy profit but that is another story.

From what I've seen from playing over 20 years and seeing different cues and cue makers is that the quality of wood isn't quite as good as it was back in the 80's and 90's. Now what that is down to I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the bigger the cue maker, then the quality of wood that they can buy in bulk seems to increase, its like they have a monopoly on the best quality ash and hardwoods and the smaller cue makers are left with the leftovers.
I'm sure some will disagree but the likes of the Thai cue makers who now seem to be making more cues than those made here seem to have very good timber and have very high consistancy of cue quality, so I'm sure there is something in that.

[perpetualboredom]

As I understand it, you don't buy the Ash in bulk, you go down and select it - otherwise 90% of your bulk buy would be thrown away! Or this is what I've been told at least.

I'd guess the Thai makers are using asian Ash which is plentiful and comes from any tree they choose to knock down rather than any sustainable source, which might account for the consistant quality.

I wouldn't say 20-30 years ago most cues were better crafted - I can't think of any/many older cues that would be better crafted than a Trevor White cue for example.

[charlesg]

hello perpetuallboredom
what's your advice? if buy a old cue for playing not collection, ye olde ash any good ash? cheers

As I understand it, you don't buy the Ash in bulk, you go down and select it - otherwise 90% of your bulk buy would be thrown away! Or this is what I've been told at least.

I'd guess the Thai makers are using asian Ash which is plentiful and comes from any tree they choose to knock down rather than any sustainable source, which might account for the consistant quality.

I wouldn't say 20-30 years ago most cues were better crafted - I can't think of any/many older cues that would be better crafted than a Trevor White cue for example.

[thelongbomber]

Ya, good question to get a cue maker's input on. I just recently had a shaft made up from Kevin Deroo that was 7 years old. It's excellent timber, dense, and hits lovely. I think shaft wood takes some time to stabilize but does a cue become more resilient over time or is it just down to how the wood was treated/oiled over the years that makes it better?

[trevs1]

This is a complicated subject, with a number of answers, depending on species of timber, and who you ask.

In terms of shaft timber, the short answer would be no, there is no reason why ash / maple of today isn't as it was years ago.
However, recently there has been disease spreading through ash in certain parts of the world, which has led to a lower yields. This situation has no doubt had some serious impact on supply, but, if you look closely enough at a large enough quantity of timber, then it's still equally as good as it ever was. After all, it's a fairly common tree, and they haven't stopped growing as they have always done. Much of the ash used in cue production originates from the Northern USA / Canada, an area who tend to manage their resources well.

I'm not remotely familiar with the operations of overseas makers, especially those large producers in the far east, but I'd wager they import vast quantities (full shipping container loads) of shaft timber, perhaps in the green (wet) state and dry it themselves. This makes it far cheaper to source and select through, and what is not good enough may well be sold onto other manufacturers of timber products, who knows. Speaking personally, it's amazing how often a great looking board of ash can yield one or two exceptional shafts, and a few others which are very average (in terms of the grain direction and subsequent pattern to the arrow markings everyone raves about having) There's a lot more that could be said on that subject (shaft quality and how people source / use it) but I won't get into that.

If we were talking about exotics, the likes of which are used in cue butts, then that's a whole new ball game, and I'd say yes, timbers are dropping off in terms of quality, and without doubt, availability. Many of these timbers come from geographical locations where resources are not managed quite so well. For example, the difficulty in sourcing good quality black ebony is becoming ridiculous, and perhaps rightly so. For years, jet black ebony was massively undersold and didn't seem to be treated as a scarce commodity at all. It seemed available on a whim and at not a great cost either if truth be told. Over very recent years, greater restriction has been enforced with respect to what timbers can be exported / imported (for some countries anyway) and an increasing number of new potential buyers (especially China), now means that certain species are becoming practically unavailable altogether, or are very limited and very highly priced. This situation is only going to get worse sadly, and eventually, I'm sure that some timbers will be impossible to get hold of. This might seem sad to anyone who wants to have a bit of this or that on their cue, but it's far sadder in numerous other ways.

There is so much to be said about the Global timber trade, not much of it good unfortunately.

Check this out for example.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7gaSpcyAXI

As for the quality of workmanship in modern versus older cues, well, in my view there is no comparison. The best of the modern makers are in a different league to those from yesteryear. What we see nowadays is simply outstanding, and in my view, can't really get much better.

[bonoman1970]

I would say that in years gone by there were probably more skilled craftsman at making cues than now ,but thats beside the point.
There is just something really special about a quality old cue that you cannot replicate in a new one ,to me the ash just has so much better feel in an old one ,besides looking better too, and it does seem to have a character of its own.
Mine is old and and was very cheap to buy,I have tried dozens of Parris cues and the like and not found 1 to be on a par with mine,
I wouldnt swap mine (which I bought from a carboot for 3 quid ) for a john parris ultimate,wouldnt even think about it!!!
If you can get a quality old cue its different class to a modern day one ,the problem is finding one!

[bigandyg]

As an ex cue maker of limited ability I am amazed at the fantastic quality of the modern day cue makers work.The multi splicing and the finish are as good as they can possibly get,no way could I have got to that standard.Having said that although I admire the amazing craftsmanship I much prefer the simple hand spliced ash/ebony with a simple maple veneer on the butt.

[trevs1]

I would say that in years gone by there were probably more skilled craftsman at making cues than now ,but thats beside the point.
There is just something really special about a quality old cue that you cannot replicate in a new one ,to me the ash just has so much better feel in an old one ,besides looking better too, and it does seem to have a character of its own.
Mine is old and and was very cheap to buy,I have tried dozens of Parris cues and the like and not found 1 to be on a par with mine,
I wouldnt swap mine (which I bought from a carboot for 3 quid ) for a john parris ultimate,wouldnt even think about it!!!
If you can get a quality old cue its different class to a modern day one ,the problem is finding one!

Why were they more skilled.?

What could they do that people of today are unable to do.?

What is special about older cues.?

What constitutes the difference in class between modern and older cues.?

Please enlighten us.

[bonoman1970]

Why were they more skilled.?

What could they do that people of today are unable to do.?

What is special about older cues.?

What constitutes the difference in class between modern and older cues.?

Please enlighten us.

Just the wood really , it feels and looks better and has more character,as with any antique,
Im not disputing the top cue makers like yrself are highly skilled,
the end of the day its each to their own, if I lost my cue tomorrow I would be looking for another old one , would not enter my mind to buy a new one, just dont like them.

[perpetualboredom]

hello perpetuallboredom
what's your advice? if buy a old cue for playing not collection, ye olde ash any good ash? cheers

As likely to be equally good/bad as an old club cue.. you'd be paying for the badge much in the same way as people do Parris cues now.

[andyjevans]

Since a lot of older cues were maple, it occurs to me that one big question with the old club cues is whether you prefer maple or ash, or are not fussy about either. Maybe it's not that simple. I know ash varies a lot. Can a cuemaker or someone who knows these things give us some idea of how variable in quality maple was in the 50s, 60s and so on?

Andy

[MikeWooldridge]

Was the wood in older cues better than today?

no.

far from having the pick of virgin old growth frosts etc., etc., i think you'll find they used any old sh*t they could get their hands on.

then, judging by the quality of workmanship i have seen, the splices were done with the aid of catapult...

in fact, i have yet to see an old cue come anywhere near the standards set by modern cue makers.

that's not taking away from playability factor of course, cos grain structure and even splices make no difference whatsoever to how good the cue plays.

there are without doubt some nice old cues out there, but they are not made from better wood, nor made better.

they're just nice old cues.

[eaoin11]

But the best of the 'English ash' used by Hunt and O'Byrne, Parris and some others in the 80's and early 90's was awesome. There was a time I think around 2000-20005 when English ash stocks had disappeared and players didn't like the ash we were seeing on a lot of new JP's. But I think the ash available is good again.