cue ferrules

[trevs1]

Finished my tea now so I'm off back to it and won't bore anyone any longer.

[Gerry Armstrong]

The adjustment to aiming is the bit I was talking about re-learning. It may well be down to a lack of ability on my part but I've always found that aspect difficult when changing cues, hence the number of cues I've been through and the relatively small number I've kept as playing cues, looking for "the one".

So I wouldn't want to alter a cue I've found to be to my liking and "throwing" the way I'm used to and I can play with and making it throw less. In my case at least it would be subtracting from my game - I wonder what that would translate in to marketing speak

[sanman]

I agree with Trevor. Having read the article posted by Gerry i now have to brush up on Applied mathematic 201 lol. Seriously from what i can ascertain from the articles cue ball deflection and swerve has more to do with cue ball contact and technique. A different ferrule can of course help with feel of a cue and feedback on the shot. I am going to write up a loooonnnggg take on deflection and why a cue ball does that when playing english some time next week but i need to consider the physics carefully.

[nrage]

As Sanman states in his original post, real conclusive scientific data is sorely lacking, and furthermore, pretty tricky to prove beyond doubt.

Provided all the variables can be identified and then either removed or accounted for, it shouldn't be unprovable beyond doubt (ignoring ppl who will doubt anything they themselves haven't experienced personally).

Just thinking about this, for interests sake..

Firstly, the player has to be removed from the equation and replaced with something which can play the same stroke again and again. The player is the biggest variable in the equation. Even a really good player is not 100% accurate/consistent and without this there will remain that small % of "doubt". So we need a stroke machine which can play any stroke, with any cue, 100% consistently.

Then, we need a high quality table or similar surface for testing.

Next, a high speed video camera, or some other means of detecting the path of the ball to a high degree of accuracy.

Then, you want to repeat a batch of test cases with every cue you can get your hands on and objectively compare the results.

And in conclusion, you'll pick the cue that looks the coolest or "feels" the best

[sberry]

Agree with sanman on this, religious people believe what they believe but that doesn't make it true or not true, people can say new ferrules and deflection is scientifically proved but it cannot be with an arm behind the cue, some people will happily really believe a blackspin or yellow banana ferrule is better, but until you get a robot set up to play the same shots and have the results filmed and laser measured, it ain't proven. But if it works for you, it is. Good.

[Gerry Armstrong]

Predator have built a machine and done lots of testing of their cues.

Their website has details if you're interested - he's called Iron Willie apparently

http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_rd.php

[02aleric]

Being a golf pro and very much involved with the technology in modern golf equipment, i can relate to the comparisons mentioned. I think the best comparison between the two on this subject is swing weight. With a golf club, you can massively alter how light or heavy a golf club 'feels' by changing where the weight is distributed in the club, without changing the overall deadweight of the golf club at all. This for me works with snooker. Ok, the difference between the weight of a brass ferrule and a lighter ferrule may be fairly insignificant when compared to the total weight of the cue, but when it's compared to say the last 6 inches of the cue, i think it becomes a lot more relevant. The cue is lighter and thinner at the tip end. if you were to add say 5 grams of weight onto the butt of a snooker cue, i very much doubt anybody would be able to 'feel' a difference, however, add 5 grams at the tip section of the cue ie the ferrel, i think the difference may be much more noticeable. This for me is why the ferrels such as the MW blackspin have such different 'feels' and produce such different throw characteristics. I for one can totally relate to what Gerry said about getting used to the throw of a new cue, i recently had to borrow a friends 8.5mm tip cue with a small ferrel that hardly had any throw or deflection whatsoever, i literally couldn't pot a ball, i'm normally a 40/50 break player with my own cue.

just my two p's worth. Interestinn topic

[nrage]

I agree with Trevor. Having read the article posted by Gerry i now have to brush up on Applied mathematic 201 lol. Seriously from what i can ascertain from the articles cue ball deflection and swerve has more to do with cue ball contact and technique.

Really.. what about the statements here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...t.html#endmass

And the list here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...nglish_effects

Specifically...
1. Squirt increases with the amount of English.
2. Squirt does not depend on shot speed (see squirt speed effects for more info).
3. Squirt increases with the amount of shaft end-mass (e.g., a low-squirt cue has less end-mass and results in less squirt).
4. Squirt is slightly less with a heavier CB (see CB weight effects).
...

(I've only copied the statements specific to squirt).

My impression of all the stuff I've read is that end mass is key variable.

[sanman]

All will be revieled next week. I also believe the table baize one plays on has a lot to do with swerve. Deflection has a lot to do with technique my friend. And like i said its gonna be a fairly lenghty post. But there are a lot of variables the go into swerve and squirt. So let me do the write up and then comments.

[02aleric]

also believe the table baize one plays on has a lot to do with swerve.

definitely, if you play on a table with a heavy 'nap', the cueball will react very differently depending on whether you are playing with or against the nap. Try playing a shot with a lot of right hand side fairly slowly straight up the table against the nap on a table with a heavy nap. the ball will deflect to the left and then instead of swerving back to the right, it seems to swerve further to the left! Like i said this only seems to happen on tables with a heavy nap, one table i play on this happens dramatically, on the table i play my home matches on, the cloth is a lot faster with a much lighter nap, on this table the effect is practically negligible.

[nrage]

Deflection has a lot to do with technique my friend.

Are you referring to using a technique to account for it. If so, it's called "back hand english" in the colostate.edu articles and the few times I've tried it, admittedly half-heartedly, it got me exactly nowhere.

But, even that technique doesn't actually alter the amount of deflection, all it does is account for it. So, (the amount of) deflection has nothing to do with technique and everything to do with cue end mass and amount of side.

[nrage]

people can say new ferrules and deflection is scientifically proved but it cannot be with an arm behind the cue

Your arm cannot alter the physics of reality. So, if something is scientifically proven to be, you cannot alter that with your arm.

some people will happily really believe a blackspin or yellow banana ferrule is better, but until you get a robot set up to play the same shots and have the results filmed and laser measured, it ain't proven.

As Gerry has mentioned, they did build/get a machine and test it (as I half expected).

The question isn't whether lower end mass causes less deflection (because that has been scientifically proven). The question is whether having less deflection is worth the cost of having to use a low end mass cue, which the few times I've tried it just felt wrong.

[nrage]

I also believe the table baize one plays on has a lot to do with swerve.

Agree totally. Swerve is a lot more complex an effect than deflection (squirt).

definitely, if you play on a table with a heavy 'nap', the cueball will react very differently depending on whether you are playing with or against the nap. Try playing a shot with a lot of right hand side fairly slowly straight up the table against the nap on a table with a heavy nap. the ball will deflect to the left and then instead of swerving back to the right, it seems to swerve further to the left! Like i said this only seems to happen on tables with a heavy nap, one table i play on this happens dramatically, on the table i play my home matches on, the cloth is a lot faster with a much lighter nap, on this table the effect is practically negligible.

[choice]

But there's nothing to "re-learn" with a different cue that maybe deflects the cueball less Gerry, as a players setup and alignment, if correct, is going to provide pretty consistent results. Snooker is all about straight lines, and so, a cue which allows the aim to remain on a straighter line (to the line of potting angle), without the need for any "extra" guesswork, has to be a winner. It will be very easy to adjust right over to something like that. The bad news is that cues in themselves are so massively variable, both in terms of shape and size, and even in density and stiffness of the shafts used within them, that to state that a given material in the ferrule of it is going to make a predictable and measurable improvement, would quite frankly be pretty optimistic at best and fairly stupid at worst.

As has been mentioned, it can be called "innovation" or "technology" but remove the mask and it's actually called marketing, only disguised as other more attractive words.

I respect this man ,and i don't have his cue,well said.

[vmax4steve]

I don't think for one moment Peter is using that cue because of some vested interest. He's got to be using it because he feels it gives him something that he wanted (whatever that may be) The thing is with the older and more established pro's is that they may feel a little jaded, and, over years of playing, occasionally look for something to reinvigorate their enthusiasm for playing. I know a few players who are fiddling with this or that ferrule, and to me, it looks like exactly that, fiddling.

Agreed

these players simply have no confidence in their own ability anymore and are looking for a golden bullet. The truth is that all that great fantastic snooker we have witnessed over the last forty years has been played by great players using ash and maple cues fitted with brass ferrules and blue diamond and elkmaster tips covered in Tweetens chalk.
You need not look any further.