handmade ??? probably not !!!

[ferret]

I have only scanned through this thread but I really do not see the problem with sourcing cue blanks from China, Thailand or any other place, infact I would of thought that materials sourced from these countries would be of a better consistency because of the more consistent weather patterns than in The UK.

The argument over UK cues is interesting, should cues be marketed as 'UK Materials' or 'Assembles in The Uk' not that I have looked but I d not recall any cue maker making the claim that all materials are sourced in The UK or are fully assembled/manufactured in The UK and if any did it would be incorrect as I am sure all tips are sourced from outside The UK.

[ferret]

Steve how do you know for certain who makes cues fully and who doesn't?

This is quite simply down to experience, allow me to explain.

I run a very popular Facebook page with over 50,000 members and every week I get emails asking if local business's can advertise on my group, this week I had one business which stood out a mile and made me nearly fall off my chair! The guy is selling himself as a photographer wanting work for photo shoots, weddings and special occasions.

The main images on his site were pretty much perfect which put a question mark over his site already, then I had a look on his wedding portfolio page and right away I could tell that the flash was attached to the hot-shoe on his camera set to automatic and pointed right at the bride and groom producing a very pronounced shadow behind them slightly to the right, the brides dress was over exposed and the background was very dark and washed out caused by the intensity of the flash. I had a friend look at this picture and I asked him if he could see anything wrong with it, all he said was that it was ok but he had seen better wedding pictures.

Now I have been doing wedding photography since I was 15 (Now 35) if I was not a experienced photographer I would of probably let the guy advertise his business and pad the price later when people started to complain, I actually sent the guy a email and asked him how such a inexperienced photographer like himself could have the nerve to charge people so much money to take pictures of their special day knowing how bad a job he was doing, I still have had no reply from him lol

[fred.england]

No MW or Jason Owen?

I thought the same thing.

[Dave Walton]

[QUOTE=louise sheldon;721414] some thai cues are also spliced the opposite way to our cues eg top and bottom first then the sides, this sometimes shows on the flat where the badge goes as two lines./QUOTE]
My Cue Craft C70 striped ebony cue is spliced that way. Its clearly advertised as being completely made on site in the UK and not imported. Makes you wonder if it is imported though.

[crispian jones]

Ok so i feel that this thread has served its purpose and highlighted facts that are already known, so its probably time to let it die as we are no nearer the truth, to be honest i dont know how i would feel if the truth came out either as to be fair these are guys who are doing a great job and trying desperatly to make there business work to its full potential ! (nothing wrong with that)

i stand by the points i make of how easily this trade can be exploited, especialy with the uk reputation for great cues, and i also know that it is now at a stage where 50% of makers use imported cues (shafts pre spliced with ebony) Very good cues may i remind you! and i think that with it being such a difficult trade to make a living at that this is probably as good as time as any for us all (thai splicers inc) realise that there is only going to be more and more competition year in year out !
Nothing wrong with competition sure, but as im trying to get accross it is so easy for anyone to do in this modern market with the right contacts !

i understand that this subject has mixed feelings, and that it will reserface time and time again but i suppose that the end product is what you guys are after, and the quality of the thai cues are very very good on the whole

[SteveDay]

Steve how do you know for certain who makes cues fully and who doesn't?

I only listed the ones that I believe fully make their own cues, based on information obtained. Would be impossible to say for certain that those not listed do not fully make but I have no evidence that they do beyond them saying they do and this then being reflected by people that say they do simply based on the makers saying they do.

Its like the post from ferret regarding the photographer, people may hire the guy based on his claims because they don't have photography experience and believe that they are getting someone that's better than they really are. Those people may well be happy with their photographs, thinking they are better because they paid more and believed the guy to be more experienced, because they read his ads on facebook. These people recommend to their friends, saying he is a great photographer, word of mouth is like viagra for his reputation and bookings, they grow and grow. Then someone like ferret comes along, sees the inconsistencies, says the guy is ok but certainly not worthy of his prices or high regard but a lot of those people would still just assume that the guy is a great photographer because of their experience. Mass opinion doesn't create facts. If I have nothing to indicate a person fully handmakes their cues and it is highly suggested that there are many people that do indeed just badge up bought in cues, then the possibility is that anyone not evident could well be not fully making. If it's agreed that there are cue makers that just stick their badges on imported cues and charge a premium then it stands to reason that those cue makers are people that are considered to be making their own cues. We must have heard of them else they wouldn't be selling cues at all.

I agree that the wording on badges could imply something that it's not and that it's only misleading if there is another element, such as the cue maker saying that they make, or people assuming they do and then telling other people that they do. If the badge said "Handmade by (cue maker name/company)" then it is saying they hand make it but then they don't make the tip so back in circles to semantics and although we could say "ah, but we don't assume they make the actual tip" then the same could be said of the person that infers handmade by from handmade. It's not what's inferred by a badge, I wouldn't buy based on the badge but on the work that the cue maker says he does, and only if some evidence that he does what he says he does. It's the general lack of evidence that omits some people from my list.

I'm also not knocking the quality of imported cues nor the people that do work on imported cues and then sell.

[trevs1]

Is it all really much different to most products bought these days? Many are bought from top brand manufacturers but are made in China and just re-branded. Until they start rectifying these major manufacturers then there is little hope of changing practices of a handful of cue makers. At least Crispian is being honest about his products and where things originate from, pity some of the others can't.

It's pretty obvious why that is never going to happen.

In openly stating that SOME, or ALL of the cues sold by the people involved in this practise, all they can hope to achieve is the ruin of any reputation they may have to some extent legitimately gained. Even IF they are / were honest about their methods, as Cris is clearly trying to be here, it then leaves people not knowing if they are buying an imported cue, or, one made in the UK, by the person whose name is on the badge.

[trevs1]

Goods being manufactured by a company and then being branded is not the issue. Apple for example do this, they have Chinese third party manufacturers who make their products. However the intellectual property belongs to Apple and the product is clearly depicted as being made in China.

If any cue maker sells their product as handmade in the UK, then that is what it should be.

The fundamental difference with the Apple analogy is that the component parts are Apple, made to their specs using materials AND manufacturing techniques Apple have approved, with staff employed / approved by Apple.

With the cue thing (as far as I am aware) the raw materials, the equipment, the manufacturing processes and labour, are all sourced and utilised by people other than those whose name ends up on the product.

To me, that's a completely different ball game altogether.

[trevs1]

Yes and as I originally stated so many other things are made in this way.... I believe as I have said as long as its open, honest and priced accordingly as Crispian has been I dont have a problem with it. People are trying to say its Fraud well look at many of the Major producers who do the same thing but are not open about it.

Ps We are also talking about Thai products in this thread which is part of Asia.

Surely it is fraudulent to allow buyers to believe a product is made somewhere it was not made, in order to charge premium prices and receive recognition for work others have largely carried out.?

If some claims "I made this" when they clearly did not, it's dishonest isn't it.?

As you say very clearly above, IF this practise is open, honest and priced accordingly, then there is no issue.

[trevs1]

Cues here in the uk carry a heavier price than other places simply because the costs are higher with the matierials and the hourly
rate needed for a standard of living is far higher than some other countries, personaly i think we are blessed with the choice of quatlity cues to choose from !
the badge issue however is whether you agree or not is a massive problem ! cuemaking is a skilled trade that is in my opinion is in danger of becoming a bandwagon for anyone to jump on, gone are the days it seems that a few commited people do all the sourcing of raw timber, and crafiting cues from scratch, these cues that can be sourced are essential to the uk and also massivly helpfull to provide cues at a sensible price without the waiting time of a handmade cue ! if badged correctly ie green baize there is nothing wrong as people can go along and buy a cue that suits them (a massive bonus to some) the issue that im getting at is that where i buy blank cues and lengthen, weight, taper and splice ect myself, the option of ordering these cues pre spliced is also available (just like greenbaize cues) so in fact all that is needed for anyone on this forum to start a cue making business is a piller drill to add badges (handmade of course) and some sandpaper and a box of elks !!!

all the guys i am refering to in this thread do a super job of finishing of there cues, and i dont think anyone should be dragged in to this thread, i am just trying to get accross the fact that i truthfuly believe that we here in the uk are in a very dangerous position where if not careful this industry can easily be exploited !

Yes, it's likely to tarnish those of us that actually do build cues solely here in the UK.

To me, that's tragic and extremely irritating.

[trevs1]

My main concern regarding cue makers is not whether it is totally handmade or not but rather than from where do these cuemakers source their timber.
With rainforest depletion at an all time high at the moment I personally would need a cue made with hardwoods that are proven to be ethically sourced.

A lot of these hardwoods are from Indonesia and are said to be ethically sourced from re-planted forests, but what they don't say is that these forests are re-planted as Palm Oil plantations, thus the indigenous flora and fauna is gone forever.

To get back on track though, handmade is handmade from plank to finished article, I certainly don't expect a cuemaker to fell their own trees, but refinishing a lathe crafted cue made in Thailand and calling it handmade or handcrafted is cheating and simply a part of the great british/far east/cheap labour business rip off that we are all being taken for. We all know that handmade or handcrafted bumps up the price of everything and I wouldn't want the word "hand" mentioned at all in the marketing of such cues as it is easily misunderstood, and the business men know it which is why it is mentioned.

Put your name on it by all means but don't call it hand anything, save that for your truly handmade cues, which are excellent BTW.

Precious hardwoods from all over the planet are in huge demand, and as such , are massive business.

Be under no illusion, a great deal of timber used for all sorts of products (and especially precious hardwoods) will NOT be harvested legitimately. This is just a sad fact of the trade in such commodities. Illegally sourced timber is filtered into the stream of legitimate wood, and will achieve the high prices that that yields. These people are experts at avoiding detection or prosecution, and besides, will often be based in countries where corruption is rife.

For anyone wanting to know more about this issue, you only have to do a websearch of Madagascar and illegal timber trade.

Shocking.

[biggus stickus]

Surely it is fraudulent to allow buyers to believe a product is made somewhere it was not made, in order to charge premium prices and receive recognition for work others have largely carried out.?

If some claims "I made this" when they clearly did not, it's dishonest isn't it.?

As you say very clearly above, IF this practise is open, honest and priced accordingly, then there is no issue.

Agreed it is dishonest but the laws in many of these countries allow this behaviour, and Western countries continue to import these supposedly "cheaper" products some marked with a little "made in China" sticker and some not. Now I am not familiar with UK law very well at all but I would think the term "hand made" could be interpreted by lawyers in many different ways therefore opening the door to people who import these cues, just sand them back put a bit of oil on and re-ferrule them.

[crispian jones]

Trevor can you see the frustration that this puts on the new guys like myself without a name with a reputation like yourself ?

for exmaple i have two thai cues here that ive spliced up in the way my last cue from yourself was done ( 16x splice macassar plus extra woods) this is an cue option i want to add to my website for aproximatly £400 ! now for me to be honest i would say that there is probably £160-£170 worth of matirials alone, plus 20 od hours of labour, plus the cost of postage, plus the loss of paypal fees and the possibilaty of tax if i ever make profit from this so called business of mine !
now i put a customised badge in it (clearly stated as thats the whole point ) and try selling it, obivously people will automaticcaly think that this is a "handmade" price range for a cue ! when in fact it is in my own opinion a price that reflects the work and skill involved !
also it has been suggested that i charge £350 for a traditional style cue (customised) when in fact i charge £240 ! if i charged £350 for that style cue i would be on a better hourly rate than yourself (not that i see that as a problem)

you always reply in a way that makes sence as you obviously read posts clearly, and take time to reflect before comenting, something many people apriciate, so would you agree that from my point of view that there is little room for honesty nowadays ? when money seems to play such a big part of everything ?

[biggus stickus]

It's pretty obvious why that is never going to happen.

In openly stating that SOME, or ALL of the cues sold by the people involved in this practise, all they can hope to achieve is the ruin of any reputation they may have to some extent legitimately gained. Even IF they are / were honest about their methods, as Cris is clearly trying to be here, it then leaves people not knowing if they are buying an imported cue, or, one made in the UK, by the person whose name is on the badge.

Totally agree Trev. I think many have made their reputation now and don't want to ruin it by admitting to using already partly made products from Thailand or wherever. Anyway I think the word is getting around now about some of them, even though it just may be on this forum.

[trevs1]

just about every thai cue i have seen has about 6 to 6 1/4" finger length of the splicing, thats not to say other genuine cue makers splicing length is not the same length but if the butt is 19" long with that finger length it could be as when the shaft is machined by the thai cue makers to take the splice of ebony it is not done flat but concave, this saves on ebony size as you can have a 10mm squar at the end instead of 9mm square. i know its only 1mm but 3 cuts into a 1 3/8" block of ebony and it soon adds upto 1/8" or 3mm and if the block is bent you soon lose a size when planning it straight.

some thai cues are also spliced the opposite way to our cues eg top and bottom first then the sides, this sometimes shows on the flat where the badge goes as two lines.

also the tips of the splices are quite rounded.

i have seen cues respliced but to do this you have either to go deeper and keep the same length but this uses more timber and you end up with no square or you could go higher say 22" and keep the same depth but again this uses more timber or you could do a bit of both

I think you are going to lose many with this post Dave, as it's a bit technical for anyone not used to the processes of making a cue.

Also, splice length alone can't be seen as any kind of indicator as to where a cue is made as you'll know. I've made cues with all sorts of splice lengths, and lengths of fingers to those splices. Likewise, the overly rounded splice tips are not exclusive to Thai cues, although I do agree they do often appear fatter and more rounded. The order in which any splices are bonded can be done by anyone too, although again, I will agree that it is a trait of thai cues, where the gluelines of the second pair of splices bonded will show as lines cutting through the flat where the name badge is fitted.