handmade ??? probably not !!!

[Neil Taperell]

Doesn't it all come down to morals at the end of the day ?

What Crispian and a few others are doing is morally right . i.e declaring what type of manufacturing process is being used . Customised / Handmade badges is the correct way of conducting business in my opinion .
Sadly we live in a World where people rightly or wrongfully want to make a quick buck .

As long as people know what they are buying and the costs reflect that i can't see an issue .

But it is the under hand the way that cues are being marketed which is the issue here , i believe .

[crispian jones]

Doesn't it all come down to morals at the end of the day ?

What Crispian and a few others are doing is morally right . i.e declaring what type of manufacturing process is being used . Customised / Handmade badges is the correct way of conducting business in my opinion .
Sadly we live in a World where people rightly or wrongfully want to make a quick buck .

As long as people know what they are buying and the costs reflect that i can't see an issue .

But it is the under hand the way that cues are being marketed which is the issue here , i believe .

exactly neil !

[Neil Taperell]

Slightly off topic . Trevs1 , can you give me a call . Crispian has my number .

[crispian jones]

The way i see it is that the thai cues are just as good when finished off as a handmade cue, lots will dissagree !
the difference being that people will pay more for something genuanly handmade, so in truth and i dont see how anyone can argue this one- people are paying the premium simply for a handmade product !

[mythman69]

so would you agree that from my point of view that there is little room for honesty nowadays ? when money seems to play such a big part of everything ?

Honesty will always be of value to society. There will always be those that are only interested in making a buck.

In a world of 'marketing' and 'spin', honesty is even more valuable to those that really want to know where and how their purchases are manufactured. Reputation is easily lost with our ever increasing interconnected digital world.

[Neil Taperell]

I think that is a very relevant point Crispian . Personally i would always go for a handmade cue .

But then i suppose i'm a snooker snob !!

All comes down to how much you want to pay for a cue . You have your choices so you takes your pick .

[trevs1]

I have only scanned through this thread but I really do not see the problem with sourcing cue blanks from China, Thailand or any other place, infact I would of thought that materials sourced from these countries would be of a better consistency because of the more consistent weather patterns than in The UK.

The argument over UK cues is interesting, should cues be marketed as 'UK Materials' or 'Assembles in The Uk' not that I have looked but I d not recall any cue maker making the claim that all materials are sourced in The UK or are fully assembled/manufactured in The UK and if any did it would be incorrect as I am sure all tips are sourced from outside The UK.

No Kev, not a problem if it's clear and truthful.

As for materials, well no, I don't think they're likely to be better at all coming from Thailand. Many of the timbers used for cuemaking come from all over the place, Africa, South America, Asia, Australia and so on. The planet has all sorts of climatic variation dependant on region. Speaking for Thailand, it's hot and incredibly humid, which is not ideal for timber to be truthful. Likewise, anywhere extremely cold with incredibly low humidity is not great either. The important thing is quality of timber, and, the stability of it. Once you have the quality, it's easily turned into scrap if it's not cared for well. Kiln drying is (and even air drying), or can be, a very complicated topic and is not likely to be better in one place to another. It's knowledge that's more important.

Regarding where timber is sourced, again, it matters not a jot. If the materials are sourced RAW, and THEN used to build a cue here in the UK, then fine. After all, I've not heard of anyone sourcing ebony from their local woodland or garden. Speaking for myself, I source almost all my timber from dealers here in the UK. Some smaller amounts of this or that I may get from overseas (mainly USA) but that's the minority of all I use. There are not that many people to deal with here in the UK for exotic timber, so it's not tricky to see just who buys what, and from where. That in itself gives an indication of who is actually likely to be making what.

If people who have been trading exotic timber in the UK for years, have no clue as to the names of some 'makers', it makes me question where they are getting the materials from to produce their products. That isn't anything conclusive of course, but it's odd don't you think.?

[trevs1]

Trevor can you see the frustration that this puts on the new guys like myself without a name with a reputation like yourself ?

for exmaple i have two thai cues here that ive spliced up in the way my last cue from yourself was done ( 16x splice macassar plus extra woods) this is an cue option i want to add to my website for aproximatly £400 ! now for me to be honest i would say that there is probably £160-£170 worth of matirials alone, plus 20 od hours of labour, plus the cost of postage, plus the loss of paypal fees and the possibilaty of tax if i ever make profit from this so called business of mine !
now i put a customised badge in it (clearly stated as thats the whole point ) and try selling it, obivously people will automaticcaly think that this is a "handmade" price range for a cue ! when in fact it is in my own opinion a price that reflects the work and skill involved !
also it has been suggested that i charge £350 for a traditional style cue (customised) when in fact i charge £240 ! if i charged £350 for that style cue i would be on a better hourly rate than yourself (not that i see that as a problem)

you always reply in a way that makes sence as you obviously read posts clearly, and take time to reflect before comenting, something many people apriciate, so would you agree that from my point of view that there is little room for honesty nowadays ? when money seems to play such a big part of everything ?

It's VERY VERY difficult to make good money, if you are actually going to build your own cues cues Cris. The only way to do that is either by....

A) producing large volume at lower prices

B) Produce high quality bespoke work at higher prices

Option A) is tricky, as to make that work you need equipment, workforce, access to lots of materials and an ability for distribution.

Option B) is also tricky, as to compete, you need to be chosen above those already established and proven.

Option A) is pretty much out of the question, as it takes sizeable resources and is logistically very challenging.

Option B) appears easier, but to gain a foothold, you'll need to make YOUR product more appealing. That might mean shorter lead times (difficult with limited equipment and materials), selling cheaper to attract business (defeats the objective of trying to make premium product)

Not too tricky to see why the practise you are looking to discuss has taken off eh.?

[stejohn]

Crispian, if you source shafts form thailand and re-splice the butt, weight, taper, finish etc then i don't see the problem of a hand made badge.

If the cue is bought in spliced then that's where the difference lies, and rightly these are customised badged. It wouldn't bother me if i was paying for a cue from a UK maker if the shaft had been sourced already turned ready for splicing as long as the quality is there.

I know others makers push the boundaries but i think you are doing yourself a mis justice with the customised badges on some of your cues with the work you have put into them, i think they justify a handmade badge.

[mythman69]

If it helps, I purchased a Crispian Jones cue because of your reputation for making awesome cases.

Your attention to detail was the main reason.

I love my CJ cue (and my TW cue) and many people at the club have asked me about it.

Good luck !!

p.s. I may order another one soon (when I have some money).

[itsnoteasy]

I didnt know the mark up on cues was so low, the actual hourly rate of pay looks quite low, that's stopped me moaning to myself about prices.
It is a tricky situation for sure.

[rob s]

Crispian, if you source shafts form thailand and re-splice the butt, weight, taper, finish etc then i don't see the problem of a hand made badge.

If the cue is bought in spliced then that's where the difference lies, and rightly these are customised badged. It wouldn't bother me if i was paying for a cue from a UK maker if the shaft had been sourced already turned ready for splicing as long as the quality is there.

I know others makers push the boundaries but i think you are doing yourself a mis justice with the customised badges on some of your cues with the work you have put into them, i think they justify a handmade badge.

But Steve the problem is that it is not a handmade cue by crispian jones as he freely admits he buys them from Thailand and they already have ebony spliced to them, so the cue was made in Thailand! Crispian has to do a lot of work after that like decorative splices, weight, taper, finish, badge etc but the cue was made originally in Thailand, now cris is 1 of they guys who is honest about this and I applaud him for that. I've actually ordered a handmade cue from him too so I can't wait to get that in a few months

[crispian jones]

as ive said the ash i source has the initial splices already added, i then add lower splices if required depending on the style of cue and length needed ect !
i am giulty of under selling the work involved in my customised cues, but still customised they are and thats how they will continue to be badged !

[Neil Taperell]

Looking at those splices ......you do seem to be under selling yourself . Stunning work .

[joejoe]

as ive said the ash i source has the initial splices already added, i then add lower splices if required depending on the style of cue and length needed ect !
i am giulty of under selling the work involved in my customised cues, but still customised they are and thats how they will continue to be badged !

i got a Quoto from one of the Asia cue maker,their want 600 USD for a cue in the picture 1,Asia cue is not cheap anymore.