handmade ??? probably not !!!

[SteveDay]

I'd say you can add Jason Owen to your list.

From cue ordering to delivery, the email thread came with a multitude of pictures , from the blank butt wood, through splicing, to final finishing.

Not what a cue maker wants to be doing all day, but good to keep with the cue I'd say.

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I don't know enough about Jason to include him on my list, a couple of photos of a blank and then of a cue with splicing already on isn't going to change my mind. I once saw a magican make a woman turn into a tiger, one minute she's there, next minute she's a tiger. Of course he didn't really, it's all an illusion, smoke and mirrors. If others are happily convinced and enjoy the fruits then so be it, I'm too much of a cynic to believe in what is put in front of my eyes. If it was that easy then people wouldn't get away with it.

[willtyson]

I don't know enough about Jason to include him on my list, a couple of photos of a blank and then of a cue with splicing already on isn't going to change my mind. I once saw a magican make a woman turn into a tiger, one minute she's there, next minute she's a tiger. Of course he didn't really, it's all an illusion, smoke and mirrors. If others are happily convinced and enjoy the fruits then so be it, I'm too much of a cynic to believe in what is put in front of my eyes. If it was that easy then people wouldn't get away with it.

Lol, trust me, Jason definitely makes his cues.

[JasonOwen]

I have resisted getting involved in this thread mainly because I have had contact and help from most of the cue makers and simply am not in a position to say any are purely importing and rebadging cues.

A few points I would like to say,
My position regarding the Thai cue makers.
I have swapped some Tulip and Thuya burr with a Thai cue maker, he approached me and I managed to get a fair bit of Macassar ebony back in the swap. Lovely stuff that we struggle to get over here. I believe they struggle to get certain woods out there.

Also I have had 2 lots of a dozen shafts, NOT spliced WITH any ebony, purely blank ash shafts, from the same Thai maker. These cost £60 each and were lovely but a bit too expensive. Crispian and I did discuss a while back, buying a larger supply but talking about a few grand each, it was at the time, just too much to lay out. If i struggle to get good ash over here then I will buy more shafts from Thai, in order to keep the orders flowing.

I get my ash from a local timber yard, the guy there plays snooker and knows what im after. They cut this into 1.5 x 59 inch blanks for me. I then select the best and send them away to be tapered, within the UK. They come back to me as a long tapered blank, with no splices on. I have sold the ones I dont end up using on ebay and the forum just to try and recoup some costs.
*Tapering ash down from a square is just too time consuming and tough to warrant doing myself. Also the secret to even splices is a proper round shaft, tough to do well on a small bed lathe.
The ebony I now get from the states, the stuff that Kirk has over here needs drying out, too moist and I dont buy in bulk or have the knowhow to accomodate that into the process.
The exotics I get from the same place as most makers in the UK.

Joints I am about to change as have sourced some from china which are perfect and a 1/4 of the cost.

To Steve Day,
My workshop is open anytime you fancy visiting. I cant promise any magic tricks tho Please PM if your up for it, Im based in Bournemouth so could tie it in with a nice day out with the family?
A few members off here have visited, some for a social, some for a nose. Its not something I want to offer as it takes up time but by the same token I love showing it off and as Cris will verify, always happy to help.

Im not going to get involved any further, as I said I feel I have made friends with some of the other makers and do not know enough to have a valid opinion.

[archalf1471]

handmade ??? probably not !!!

and your extendas you have recently re'sourced due to your contacts in deepest darkest north Devon.
A very generous post that offers an insight into the logistics and research put in by genuine craftsmen such as yourself and Trevor before you have even taken to your workshops to create us I have no doubt a stunning playing cue.

[eaoin11]

The ideas that most customers have in their heads about where and how their cues are made have been put there over the years by successful cue makers who have sold their message well, predominantly via websites. If you want change Crispian you will need to do the same, set a standard and be successful and influential enough to pressure other makers into following your example.

[crispian jones]

The ideas that most customers have in their heads about where and how their cues are made have been put there over the years by successful cue makers who have sold their message well, predominantly via websites. If you want change Crispian you will need to do the same, set a standard and be successful and influential enough to pressure other makers into following your example.

i am trying to set a standard here, that is what this thread is all about, a fair playing feild that allows an honest person a chance to compeete with a genuine product, no chance of doing that though unfortunatly as things are so bent in this trade that unless your prepared to lie about your product it will not sell to its true value !

i have no issues what so ever with pricing, i belive that even the guys that i am getting at do fantastic jobs and probably would still sell the product if the word "handmade" was removed, after all john parris can sell each and every cue without putting the "handmade" wording on his badges !

[mrbluejay]

i am trying to set a standard here, that is what this thread is all about, a fair playing feild that allows an honest person a chance to compeete with a genuine product, no chance of doing that though unfortunatly as things are so bent in this trade that unless your prepared to lie about your product it will not sell to its true value !

i have no issues what so ever with pricing, i belive that even the guys that i am getting at do fantastic jobs and probably would still sell the product if the word "handmade" was removed, after all john parris can sell each and every cue without putting the "handmade" wording on his badges !

You are obviously too nice a bloke mate, because if I had evidence that my competitors were bending the truth to gain a commercial advantage over me, I would out them in a nano second!

[crispian jones]

You are obviously too nice a bloke mate, because if I had evidence that my competitors were bending the truth to gain a commercial advantage over me, I would out them in a nano second!

As you say mate im too nice !

[vmax4steve]

I get my ash from a local timber yard, the guy there plays snooker and knows what im after. They cut this into 1.5 x 59 inch blanks for me. I then select the best and send them away to be tapered, within the UK. They come back to me as a long tapered blank, with no splices on. I have sold the ones I dont end up using on ebay and the forum just to try and recoup some costs.
*Tapering ash down from a square is just too time consuming and tough to warrant doing myself. Also the secret to even splices is a proper round shaft, tough to do well on a small bed lathe.

Tapering ash is time consuming indeed, but sending this out to tender to be done by machine means that your cues are not entirely hand made either.
I recently sold a cue I made on ebay after advertising on this forum with no success. As you state getting the splices even is very hard if the shaft isn't perfectly round, hard to do by hand which is what I do.
This cue was perfectly straight with a lovely straight grained ash shaft and it took me about three months to make. It went for £40, which didn't even cover the timber costs, and I have yet to recieve any feedback from the buyer.

I find that planing down the shaft is the hardest part of the cue making process and if my workmanship is to be compared to machine turned perfectly round shafts then I'm in for a pasting, but I will continue to try.
I also will continue to source my ash locally and use reclaimation yards for my hardwood, save the rainforest and all that jazz.
I wish to go to my grave with as clear a conscience as possible so I will never make it as a businessman.

[eaoin11]

i am trying to set a standard here, that is what this thread is all about, a fair playing feild that allows an honest person a chance to compeete with a genuine product, no chance of doing that though unfortunatly as things are so bent in this trade that unless your prepared to lie about your product it will not sell to its true value !

i have no issues what so ever with pricing, i belive that even the guys that i am getting at do fantastic jobs and probably would still sell the product if the word "handmade" was removed, after all john parris can sell each and every cue without putting the "handmade" wording on his badges !

Of course but the point is that your standard won't become industry standard unless you do a lot more than talk about it here.

I personally am not concerned about the word 'handmade'. Do we have a clear definition for this? Does a shaft have to be hand planed? Is a power plane ok? If so, why not a lathe? If hands and tools are involved in each case it seems a bit arbitrary to decide that only a hand planed shaft is 'hand made', but this idea has been constructed in our heads over the years by a few influential websites. We've already established that the imported cues are of high quality so the benefit of a hand planed cue seems to be purely a matter of perception.


I think it's better to focus on 'who' not 'how'. With badges, perhaps you could clarify the 'who' a bit more by having 'handmade by ......' and 'imported and customised by....' .

[crispian jones]

power tools are always going to be a big part of cuemaking, there is no problem in using hand tools or jigs or methods to improve your work and to try speeding things up, in most cases machine produced items are usually more accuratly made...

[luke-h]

power tools are always going to be a big part of cuemaking, there is no problem in using hand tools or jigs or methods to improve your work and to try speeding things up, in most cases machine produced items are usually more accuratly made...

if you lived anywhere near me i would of offered myself as a free apprentice lol

[eaoin11]

power tools are always going to be a big part of cuemaking, there is no problem in using hand tools or jigs or methods to improve your work and to try speeding things up, in most cases machine produced items are usually more accuratly made...

Oh so is that our definition? Only using tools that can be picked up in your hand? It may be obvious to others but I haven't seen this spelled out before.

[damienlch]

The way i see it is that the thai cues are just as good when finished off as a handmade cue, lots will dissagree !
the difference being that people will pay more for something genuanly handmade, so in truth and i dont see how anyone can argue this one- people are paying the premium simply for a handmade product !

I know nothing about making cues but coming purely from a consumer's point of view, I'd consider a cue to be handmade when a cue maker takes a rectangular block of wood for the shaft, a rectangular block of wood for the cue butt and work on them (for e.g. prep them, shape them, join them, finish them etc) with available tools.

And yes, I'd pay premium for handmade cues by reputable cue makers... then maybe a few more if I like the work done on the cue and find that they play well.

[Neil Taperell]

Nail on the head mate . Totally agree .