handmade ??? probably not !!!

[crispian jones]

If it was a fellow cuemaker that said that, i would be a little bit concerned.

not a cue maker, although a lot of them know this

[trevs1]

Well something needs to change in this market because IMO I think a minimum 8 month wait is ridiculous. Top cue makers can't be that inundated with orders to be so far behind.

Would I like a Glover, White, Stamford etc? Yes, but not with that wait. Would I care the shaft of my new cue originated in Thailand? No - It would be a quality shaft. As long as my splicing, weight, length etc requirements were met I would gladly pay the premium for the badge. If you could turn it around in under a month!

As far as I'm concerned someone could make a killing. Improve your customer relations because quite frankly its shocking from most of the makers and concentrate on being able to deliver quality cues in a more reasonable time frame and I'm sure the orders would roll in.

Responding to the text in bold above....Yes they can.

Furthermore, If a maker works alone, mainly by hand, how many cues per month are they expected to be able to produce.?

What if the demand outstrips what they can produce. What happens to the lead time then.?

See how it works.?

[vmax4steve]

The comedian and activist Mark Thomas on his Peoples Manifesto radio series took ideas from the public that they believed should become law. These ideas were voted on and the winners were then taken to be lobbied to parliament.
One of these ideas was Honesty and transparency in all transactions.
Meaning that in all transactions the true cost of any service or product should be laid out in full for the customer to see. If a product only cost a fiver to produce but was being sold for £50 then in law the producer and/or seller of the product would have to say so.

Suffice to say that this wasn't taken up and championed by any of the "honourable" members.

What we have in these times is not fair business practise, but simply an incredible desire to make as much profit as possible and prices are set by what the customer is willing to pay.
Now if a lot of people are willing to pay £500 + for a tool that is little more than a pointed stick, then people are going to start a bandwagon rolling and take advantage of that.
It's the customer that sets the price, if it costs too much walk on by and see prices start to drop.

[trevs1]

what are the numbers on the 8 cues jason ?

This is a very pertinent question.

Something to add to it also would be.... Did the buyers know the cues they were buying were not made by Jason.?

[trevs1]

One thing bothers me in this thread..
Jason said he used blanks from Thailand because they were "superior quality ash"
Does this mean that there is no quality ash in the UK?
I personally think that sourcing wood is part of the cue making process.

There is good quality timber here in the UK, but it does require effort to source it and there are no guarantees when you go to look.

Yes, I agree that selection of timber (or at least sourcing and buying what you intend to use in a product carrying your name) is a part of making that product.

[trevs1]

crispian is correct. I have to hold my hands up and say having had a brief conversation with a fellow member last evening I now understand Crispians motives more. This does not mean I agree with the original post without actually naming those whom the post was intended, but I am man enough to admit some of the content of my posts aimed at crispian were out of order and to Crispian in an open forum I apologise unreservedly. But I am afraid you're still a crap speller!!!!

Good on you Nick.

[trevs1]

If it was a fellow cuemaker that said that, i would be a little bit concerned.

Yes, so would I.

It's tricky for anyone to be totally truthful about everything all of the time, but a good effort to do just that is surely the way to go.

[trevs1]

The posts I made previously in this thread are here because I was asked to give an opinion on what I read.

The posts made tonight are for a similar reason. Below is my last post on it.

Here......

Cris called me some time ago to ask my views on the Thai cue thing, and, whether I thought it was a good idea for him to do it.

As I'm sure he would confirm, I told him that I knew little to nothing about Thai cues, let alone how to import any. However, I did say this....

For me, if a maker (or supposed maker) is considering importing cues from abroad, to embellish / finish as they want and then to sell on here from the UK as being "made" in the UK, without passing any of the cues origins onto a prospective customer, then it's massively out of order. If however the same practise is followed and the origins of the cue are disclosed in an honest and open way, then that is far more acceptable. Cris was (or at least appeared to be) very aggravated by the apparent business of some people buying in part made cues, only to add minor finishing touches and then sell them on as entirely their own work. On that score, we were 100% on the same page. I hate that practise and have no time for it at all. As "some" of us know already, there are makers who are involved in such practise, where no information is provided as to where a given cue originated from, and yet at the same time, no "specific" information is provided to suggest the cue is made here in the UK either. The problem for the buyer is that they will "assume" the cue was built here in the UK, simply because that's where the persons or business's name on the badge happens to reside. So, purely by natural assumption, it would be fair to say that the "seller" (or maker if you like) by not specifying clearly where the cue IS MADE, is implying that it's a UK product. That, well at least to my reckoning, is a very dubious practise and I have no problem with labelling that as fraudulent.

What I then told Cris was this....

If he was looking to buy in part made cues, finish them as he wanted, with whatever other splice work and detailing, AND, tell people the origins of those cues, then fine. However, if he was still wanting to make his own cues, here in the UK and sell them by using a different name badge, there could be an issue. That issue may be that if a customer wanted to place an order for a UK made custom built cue, to their own specs and design; how could they be ensured of getting a fully UK made cue, when they would be aware that the seller also imports part made cues.? The customer would have to trust what he eventually received as being made where the maker said it was made. In my opinion that's a very risky strategy, because once the shadow of suspicion is cast, it may be difficult to get away from. I guess I could be wrong on that..

I also said that on the above point alone, I would never go near an imported cue and would never put a name badge of mine to one. All the cues I build, and I mean every single one which has my badge in, are made by me, here in Wales. I am used to doing things the way I do them, so I see no need to buy anything in to make my life easier or to make more profit. As anyone reading this will know, I do not advertise or promote myself at all, anywhere. I DO NOT use TSF as a vehicle to sell a single thing. I do not sell tips, cue towels or any other accessories, even though I no doubt could do. Whether that makes me foolish I don't know, but it's how it is.

Finally, I have to say, that I would be more than happy for people to know exactly how things are done, where and by who. I'd lose no sleep whatsoever for the lot to be exposed for what it is.

[crispian jones]

Just seen what you said about working on imported shafts so scrub that! In general if anyone can elaborate? What sort of numbers are we talking coming in as orders each month and how many could be done a month?

if your asking me 8 months is a very short amount of time to expect a "genuine" handmade cue to be made, esspecially from one of the bigger guys, i susspect that it has been many years since some had that short a waiting time

[crispian jones]

The posts I made previously in this thread are here because I was asked to give an opinion on what I read.

The posts made tonight are for a similar reason. Below is my last post on it.

Here......

Cris called me some time ago to ask my views on the Thai cue thing, and, whether I thought it was a good idea for him to do it.

As I'm sure he would confirm, I told him that I knew little to nothing about Thai cues, let alone how to import any. However, I did say this....

For me, if a maker (or supposed maker) is considering importing cues from abroad, to embellish / finish as they want and then to sell on here from the UK as being "made" in the UK, without passing any of the cues origins onto a prospective customer, then it's massively out of order. If however the same practise is followed and the origins of the cue are disclosed in an honest and open way, then that is far more acceptable. Cris was (or at least appeared to be) very aggravated by the apparent business of some people buying in part made cues, only to add minor finishing touches and then sell them on as entirely their own work. On that score, we were 100% on the same page. I hate that practise and have no time for it at all. As "some" of us know already, there are makers who are involved in such practise, where no information is provided as to where a given cue originated from, and yet at the same time, no "specific" information is provided to suggest the cue is made here in the UK either. The problem for the buyer is that they will "assume" the cue was built here in the UK, simply because that's where the persons or business's name on the badge happens to reside. So, purely by natural assumption, it would be fair to say that the "seller" (or maker if you like) by not specifying clearly where the cue IS MADE, is implying that it's a UK product. That, well at least to my reckoning, is a very dubious practise and I have no problem with labelling that as fraudulent.

What I then told Cris was this....

If he was looking to buy in part made cues, finish them as he wanted, with whatever other splice work and detailing, AND, tell people the origins of those cues, then fine. However, if he was still wanting to make his own cues, here in the UK and sell them by using a different name badge, there could be an issue. That issue may be that if a customer wanted to place an order for a UK made custom built cue, to their own specs and design; how could they be ensured of getting a fully UK made cue, when they would be aware that the seller also imports part made cues.? The customer would have to trust what he eventually received as being made where the maker said it was made. In my opinion that's a very risky strategy, because once the shadow of suspicion is cast, it may be difficult to get away from. I guess I could be wrong on that..

I also said that on the above point alone, I would never go near an imported cue and would never put a name badge of mine to one. All the cues I build, and I mean every single one which has my badge in, are made by me, here in Wales. I am used to doing things the way I do them, so I see no need to buy anything in to make my life easier or to make more profit. As anyone reading this will know, I do not advertise or promote myself at all, anywhere. I DO NOT use TSF as a vehicle to sell a single thing. I do not sell tips, cue towels or any other accessories, even though I no doubt could do. Whether that makes me foolish I don't know, but it's how it is.

Finally, I have to say, that I would be more than happy for people to know exactly how things are done, where and by who. I'd lose no sleep whatsoever for the lot to be exposed for what it is.

very good points here trevor, the thai cues side of things would always cast doubts mixing them with handmade cues, therefore i have spent a small fortune getting a new website and a certificate thingy setup on my pc that will enable me to offer a photo certificate with all my handmade cues !
not that i want to be taking photos, but i feel with the inclusion of customised cues it is something i feel i needed to do

[eaoin11]

i acctualy agree to what your saying andrew, but this thread was not started to disscuss whether people use preturned or squre shafts, or whether a lathe is used or not, or any tools to that mater ? it is simply about rebadging the cues in the way that is exepted ! i am not suggesting people stop making cues either, just the badge issue !

i think that this is all we should be disscussing here !

But this is why the thread has gone in circles to a large extent. I understand that you think using the word handmade should be a statement that the named person made all of the cue but it confuses the two issues IMO and a lot of cue makers don't use the word handmade but still benefit from customers making the same assumptions we are talking about here.

I say just push for disclosure somewhere be it the badge, website or wherever you advertise. Trev has just given the kind of unequivocal statement that most cue makers seem unwilling to make.

[crispian jones]

so i geuss that this thread has failed in some respects as, just like usual we realy have not got anywhere

so far all i have achived is to bring myself down (for being a **** stirer) and jason for using a few dodgy cues, not exactly
the result i was after to be fair !

this subject will come up time and time again, and the only thing that is going to change is the badges in the thai cues,
im pretty sure we can see that the word "handmade" will continue to remain on most of the work produced here but one thing
im pretty sure is that the addition or coulored badges will also come in to play, ie red green black white ect ! what i would call
screw you, shaft you and **** you

i have blatently tried to expose this, something i feel someone one day with bigger balls than myself will do

when that day comes i will be here laughing my tits off until then i will just get on with my own little things and try keeping
quiet !

for all the guys who failed to join in this thread i geuss i can say thanks for your support eh ? (unless of cource you didnt see the thread) ?

[archalf1471]

handmade ??? probably not !!!

as a few including myself have stated without naming and shaming those concerned the thread was always going to fail in its original objective whether that was through yourself or from others who promised you their support but did not deliver in the end for either lack of "balls" that you alluded to or just selfishly protecting their own interests whilst being happy to feed you to the "sharks" as it were.

[Neil Taperell]

so i geuss that this thread has failed in some respects as, just like usual we realy have not got anywhere

so far all i have achived is to bring myself down (for being a **** stirer) and jason for using a few dodgy cues, not exactly
the result i was after to be fair !

this subject will come up time and time again, and the only thing that is going to change is the badges in the thai cues,
im pretty sure we can see that the word "handmade" will continue to remain on most of the work produced here but one thing
im pretty sure is that the addition or coulored badges will also come in to play, ie red green black white ect ! what i would call
screw you, shaft you and **** you

i have blatently tried to expose this, something i feel someone one day with bigger balls than myself will do

when that day comes i will be here laughing my tits off until then i will just get on with my own little things and try keeping
quiet !

for all the guys who failed to join in this thread i geuss i can say thanks for your support eh ? (unless of cource you didnt see the thread) ?

Will be interesting to see who does this then ......assume you have some inside knowledge

[cueman]

Having read through this thread I just have to say that unfortunately this is the way of the world today. Everything is about making as much money as possible and screw the customer. This isn't any different to how many products are made and sold the world over, its not exclusive to cue making but obviously this being a cue forum discussion that is why its been brought up.

In my opinion most people don't really care where a cue is made, or who by, who sourced the materials, turned the shaft etc, its just another one of these things that is opening a can of worms but the transparancy of who made what, where, when etc requires all cue makers to be honest and where there is money to be made honesty is in short supply all over the world.
Its only the real cue enthusiasts that worry about stuff like this, I've bought thai cues and to be honest they make some tremendous stuff so if people are getting good quality I think that is the most important thing at the end of the day.

I think trying to expose others or trying to get a level playing field is impossible, you think this business is bad its a drop in the ocean compared to many. We are only talking a few hundred quid for a cue, its not like cues are being made and sold for thousands.