handmade ??? probably not !!!

[sealer]

Of course it does not prove anything.

However lets say you have done 90% of cues using UK method and you also sold 10% of the Thai method ones that does not prove anything either but it does suggest something, does it not?

I do not say someone has done it i just say that some people were asked if they have done it and they are not replaying even though they suggested a quick replay and possible explanations.

[RogiBear]

I cannot for the life of me work out how "ripping apart" or even dismantling a cue would answer any questions of origins of the cue. The method of splicing a cue in Thailand can surely be replicated in the UK, Australia, Canada or anywhere else in the world. It is surely down to the maker how a cue is spliced and just because a makers splice work may be similar to Thai produced cues it DOES NOT mean that the said cue was made in Thailand. To suggest otherwise is just nonsense in my humble opinion!!!

It was said earlier in the thread that the thai cue shafts have to be extended prior to splicing, this would be unlikely for a uk made cue.

[crispian jones]

I cannot for the life of me work out how "ripping apart" or even dismantling a cue would answer any questions of origins of the cue. The method of splicing a cue in Thailand can surely be replicated in the UK, Australia, Canada or anywhere else in the world. It is surely down to the maker how a cue is spliced and just because a makers splice work may be similar to Thai produced cues it DOES NOT mean that the said cue was made in Thailand. To suggest otherwise is just nonsense in my humble opinion!!!

yes fred it could be replicated in the uk, but not using a handplane, this is a machinery setup that is done differently ! now not understanding how cues are made it is pretty difficult to explain, but it is a method that i chalange anyone to try with just a handplane
i know you think this proves nothing fred, and for that i understand totally as im sure you see things a little differently, but when you are using these cues day in day out it is something that is so easy to see, it is a pitty that andy did not stay around long enough to chalange the cue, something that i and anyone in this world would have done if they knew i was wrong !!!!
do you not find that a little strange at all?

the time is right now for this to come out, the reason being things always change, a great example of that being the cloud surrounding a certain cuemaker who for the life of me i could not tell if theye are or are not made here there or anywhere else come to think of it !
you can look at this from any angle you choose, whether it be a shamless self promoting stunt or just me being me ? but what you lot need to understand, and understand quickly if you have any sence is that all this info i have put myself on the line to provide is in your own interests !!! if you can not see that then i am at a loss ?

i have as it hapens spoke to one uk cuemaker this week and asked him if he will be joining in this thread, to which the answer was a simply no or words to that effect ?

now i for one think that my imput to this topic is done, i have put forward so much of my time and passion, i have stood strong to every statment i have made and althogh at one time i did initially regret opening my big mouth, i now dont, my gripe has only increased throughout the whole thread !

if a product is made by someones skill then all credit to that individual, if not then to take accolade in my eyes is wrong, to over charge is wrong, and to add a badge that clearly states handmade is also wrong !

this is a difficult trade to make money in honestly, verry difficult infact, that ive learnt, but it is a trade that you cant get rich in verry quickly if money is your only concern, i could have chosen to badge each and every thai cue that has passed through my hands in the past year with a "handmade badge" and i would be £15,000 better of by doing that, i am not that type of guy, in the last month i had lots to think about with a few different unexpected twists that have occured in my personal life, this has brought me to the point of realization that i will loose everything if i continue in my honest way, my house, my wife, my kids and also my workshop (something im sure you understand mate so the decision was easy for me, to be honest and stick to that decision !
now by being so honest one of my "customised" cues will never sell next to any claimed "handmade" cue so on that basis i need to open peoples eyes to what your actualy buying and raving about week in week out on this forum !

now that this thread is here i suggest you try digging as deep as you can because the can of worms as it is called has been half opened for you alredy, me personaly i have probably lost freinds, contacts, a little selfrespect and and most likely my trader contacts....

food for thought? what do you pay the preimium for on a genuine handmade uk made cue ?
in my eyes you are paying for the time and effort of a skilled individual to create by himself a cue that he is hapy to put his name too, in this cost you need to realize that the cuemaker is trying to make a living and has all the usual overheads assosiated with running a business here in the uk, you are paying for this individual to select a piece of ash/maple that is suitable for that perticular cue, again you are paying for there expirience in them dissisions, surley all these things concidered £400+ for a handmade cue is more than a fair price

what you are not paying for - is people who see the opertunity to make good money quickly by jumping on the bandwagon of importing thai cues, adding a faceplate to it and passing it on as a handmade cue at the same price as the true craftsmen who have worked years to get where they are !

[Dave Walton]

Jeez...I feel so USED! I guess I can assume no one knows exactly what is REALLY going on. I see rumour and innuendo but no real proof so far. I have even been told by a knowledgeable pro some of the above but again that's word of mouth and no real proof.

I don't think anyone is ready to rip apart one of these suspect cues to confirm the rumour as it would ruin the investment.

Terry

I cannot for the life of me work out how "ripping apart" or even dismantling a cue would answer any questions of origins of the cue. The method of splicing a cue in Thailand can surely be replicated in the UK, Australia, Canada or anywhere else in the world. It is surely down to the maker how a cue is spliced and just because a makers splice work may be similar to Thai produced cues it DOES NOT mean that the said cue was made in Thailand. To suggest otherwise is just nonsense in my humble opinion!!!

It does when all of a cuemakers cues are spliced in the traditional UK manor then 1 or 2 pop up from that maker that are spliced differently, the same way Thai cues are spliced

[paddybhoy30]

Very good post

[throtts]

Mr Jones,

You were totally correct to open the worms if there are quick money maker/makers ? ( liars ).

It should not effect your business in anyway, IMO..

All the best..

[Dave Walton]

I cannot for the life of me work out how "ripping apart" or even dismantling a cue would answer any questions of origins of the cue. The method of splicing a cue in Thailand can surely be replicated in the UK, Australia, Canada or anywhere else in the world. It is surely down to the maker how a cue is spliced and just because a makers splice work may be similar to Thai produced cues it DOES NOT mean that the said cue was made in Thailand. To suggest otherwise is just nonsense in my humble opinion!!!

It was said earlier in the thread that the thai cue shafts have to be extended prior to splicing, this would be unlikely for a uk made cue.

That could be why a cuemaker who I won't names cues never have the square of ash/maple on the bottom of the butt you would usually see in a hand spliced cue

[RogiBear]

That could be why a cuemaker who I won't names cues never have the square of ash/maple on the bottom of the butt you would usually see in a hand spliced cue

This wouldn't necessarily indicate anything. There are too many variables.

[Terry Davidson]

Crispian:

For my own info (and maybe others) what does it cost you to take a Thai blank and turn it into a custom cue, considering all your expenses for material, labour, electricity, wear and tear on your equipment and anything else you can factor in.

If it comes out to around 200-250 then charging 400 is a decent profit however if some cuemakers are charging 650-800 (or more) and representing them as totally handmade in Britain then I think that is not too honest. I would think a 200% to 400% mark-up is being a bit too greedy and should be put out there in public if any definite proof is available.

Terry

[Andy Travis]

yes fred it could be replicated in the uk, but not using a handplane, this is a machinery setup that is done differently ! now not understanding how cues are made it is pretty difficult to explain, but it is a method that i chalange anyone to try with just a handplane
i know you think this proves nothing fred, and for that i understand totally as im sure you see things a little differently, but when you are using these cues day in day out it is something that is so easy to see, it is a pitty that andy did not stay around long enough to chalange the cue, something that i and anyone in this world would have done if they knew i was wrong !!!! do you not find that a little strange at all?

the time is right now for this to come out, the reason being things always change, a great example of that being the cloud surrounding a certain cuemaker who for the life of me i could not tell if theye are or are not made here there or anywhere else come to think of it !
you can look at this from any angle you choose, whether it be a shamless self promoting stunt or just me being me ? but what you lot need to understand, and understand quickly if you have any sence is that all this info i have put myself on the line to provide is in your own interests !!! if you can not see that then i am at a loss ?

i have as it hapens spoke to one uk cuemaker this week and asked him if he will be joining in this thread, to which the answer was a simply no or words to that effect ?

now i for one think that my imput to this topic is done, i have put forward so much of my time and passion, i have stood strong to every statment i have made and althogh at one time i did initially regret opening my big mouth, i now dont, my gripe has only increased throughout the whole thread !

if a product is made by someones skill then all credit to that individual, if not then to take accolade in my eyes is wrong, to over charge is wrong, and to add a badge that clearly states handmade is also wrong !

this is a difficult trade to make money in honestly, verry difficult infact, that ive learnt, but it is a trade that you cant get rich in verry quickly if money is your only concern, i could have chosen to badge each and every thai cue that has passed through my hands in the past year with a "handmade badge" and i would be £15,000 better of by doing that, i am not that type of guy, in the last month i had lots to think about with a few different unexpected twists that have occured in my personal life, this has brought me to the point of realization that i will loose everything if i continue in my honest way, my house, my wife, my kids and also my workshop (something im sure you understand mate so the decision was easy for me, to be honest and stick to that decision !
now by being so honest one of my "customised" cues will never sell next to any claimed "handmade" cue so on that basis i need to open peoples eyes to what your actualy buying and raving about week in week out on this forum !

now that this thread is here i suggest you try digging as deep as you can because the can of worms as it is called has been half opened for you alredy, me personaly i have probably lost freinds, contacts, a little selfrespect and and most likely my trader contacts....

food for thought? what do you pay the preimium for on a genuine handmade uk made cue ?
in my eyes you are paying for the time and effort of a skilled individual to create by himself a cue that he is hapy to put his name too, in this cost you need to realize that the cuemaker is trying to make a living and has all the usual overheads assosiated with running a business here in the uk, you are paying for this individual to select a piece of ash/maple that is suitable for that perticular cue, again you are paying for there expirience in them dissisions, surley all these things concidered £400+ for a handmade cue is more than a fair price

what you are not paying for - is people who see the opertunity to make good money quickly by jumping on the bandwagon of importing thai cues, adding a faceplate to it and passing it on as a handmade cue at the same price as the true craftsmen who have worked years to get where they are !

You ARE wrong about me, i think everyone knows that.

[Bigmeek]

You ARE wrong about me, i think everyone knows that.

What's the answer to the splicing question then Andy? Do your splices look like Thai ones or is that just a load of rubbish? Have you done different splices on different cues?

[crispian jones]

Crispian:

For my own info (and maybe others) what does it cost you to take a Thai blank and turn it into a custom cue, considering all your expenses for material, labour, electricity, wear and tear on your equipment and anything else you can factor in.

If it comes out to around 200-250 then charging 400 is a decent profit however if some cuemakers are charging 650-800 (or more) and representing them as totally handmade in Britain then I think that is not too honest. I would think a 200% to 400% mark-up is being a bit too greedy and should be put out there in public if any definite proof is available.

Terry

my own cue cost anywhere between £100 and £200 with matirials on top of that there is labour and electrics ect, but that is my own costs, i dodnt realy know what others would work it out at !

in your case terry i think that this is irelavant, as ive clearly stated i dont know the origin of those cues, they certanly dont come from the same place as mine mate !

[crispian jones]

andy i have seen lots of your cues and in your case i belive that you do make pretty much everything, i am talking about this 1 cue here at the moment !

[Bigmeek]

andy i have seen lots of your cues and in your case i belive that you do make pretty much everything, i am talking about this 1 cue here at the moment !

Could it be a forgery?

[jrc750]

Could it be a forgery?

Don't think so lol, it was Andy that sold it !
I believe Andy is one of the good guys