R.i.p

[billabong]

Kettle, pot , etc etc

[Dave Walton]

Correct, most of his drivel has been out of order

nice trolling pal - and i've never replied to any of your posts so i don't understand why you would post about me (not that i could really care about some cyber troll's drivel). you are exactly the type of poster whom i will go out of my way to insult simply because i can. not only are you ignorant about the issue being discussed, you have an inferiority complex which causes you to rage at others (not only other posters who don't share your ignorant opinions but also the cuemakers whom you don't have first hand facts about) - which makes you a prime target for cyber humiliation

Obviously you do care or you wouldn't have posted this childish nonsense. First hand facts, Jason himself when exposed admitted his wrong doing, can't really get much more first hand than that :-)

[arbitrage]

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

hi trevor,

in principle, i do agree with a lot of your points. i had actually not read the original post that was closed. from a legal standpoint, as i had pointed out in the earlier post, if the cuemaker had not materially finished the cue in the UK then he cannot present the product as such. it really all depends on what representations were made by the cuemaker in the marketing process. if he had not made representations to the buyer that the cue was made in the UK substantially by himself then he is in the clear legally as it is not illegal to import a certain product and badge it with your own brand name. if he had made false representations to the buyer then obviously he is at fault and would be legally liable

having said this, i do agree with you that while legally it might be ok, it is a very questionable practice which will likely affect the brand, the reputation of the cuemaker and the value of his products - which is why i brought out the pierre cardin example in earlier posts

as i have pointed out, to me personally it would just be a matter of perceived value e.g. if i know that a cuemaker outsources his production then i would consider whether he could control the quality of the product properly and then how much value to ascribe to a product which is only partially done by the brand name owner himself; in the case of your cues, there would be a premium or "100% handmade by the cuemaker himself" cachet that one can ascribe to the product

thanks for the lengthy reply trevor and for clarifying your position on this issue. as an ending point, i would say that the ordinances within the trade act are somewhat outdated and should be updated so that manufacturers are required to list out these specs so that buyers can have the information to decide. then there would be far less ambiguity and the onus would not be on the buyer to to go through a process of peeling the onion with the manufacturer to ensure he/she is getting a fair deal

best regards

[Dave Walton]

Kettle, pot , etc etc

It is a wee bit ironic to call someone a troll then admit to deliberately going out of your way to insult people on forums. Made me laugh anyway lol

[billabong]

hi trevor,

in principle, i do agree with a lot of your points. i had actually not read the original post that was closed. from a legal standpoint, as i had pointed out in the earlier post, if the cuemaker had not materially finished the cue in the UK then he cannot present the product as such. it really all depends on what representations were made by the cuemaker in the marketing process. if he had not made representations to the buyer that the cue was made in the UK substantially by himself then he is in the clear legally as it is not illegal to import a certain product and badge it with your own brand name. if he had made false representations to the buyer then obviously he is at fault and would be legally liable

having said this, i do agree with you that while legally it might be ok, it is a very questionable practice which will likely affect the brand, the reputation of the cuemaker and the value of his products - which is why i brought out the pierre cardin example in earlier posts

as i have pointed out, to me personally it would just be a matter of perceived value e.g. if i know that a cuemaker outsources his production then i would consider whether he could control the quality of the product properly and then how much value to ascribe to a product which is only partially done by the brand name owner himself; in the case of your cues, there would be a premium or "100% handmade by the cuemaker himself" cachet that one can ascribe to the product

thanks for the lengthy reply trevor and for clarifying your position on this issue. as an ending point, i would say that the ordinances within the trade act are somewhat outdated and should be updated so that manufacturers are required to list out these specs so that buyers can have the information to decide. then there would be far less ambiguity and the onus would not be on the buyer to to go through a process of peeling the onion with the manufacturer to ensure he/she is getting a fair deal

best regards

I suppose the thing everyone has learned here, is not to buy without asking direct questions about the individual cue you are buying
( instead of relying on what may be an out of date recollection of a cue makers methods, from a website or forum thread ).

Maybe someone in the trade ( trev ) could outline the questions that could cut through any smoke or mirrors ?

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[Andy Travis]

Could you explain why that particular cue is spliced differently as Crispian has shown and why it is spliced top and bottom first when it appears you don't usually do it that way? I feel that by answering those questions you could have helped clear the shadow of doubt days ago Andy. As I've posted a couple of times now the only cue of yours I've seen in the flesh was a very good cue, and your prices are sensible

Dave i always splice like that, which way would you splice if you wanted the front splice in line with the chevrons

[golferson123]

Dave i always splice like that, which way would you splice if you wanted the front splice in line with the chevrons

you see this is the problem andy,you are having to explain yourself to non cue makers!.you like your top splice in the middle of the top chevron.if you splice side first there is no guarantee this will occur,and if you put the third splice in the middle of the chevron,hey presto the break out dont line up and your work is critisized .

[archalf1471]

Do they really buy the basic spliced up cue for only £60 ????
That's a lot cheaper than i would imagine
Surely shipping and customs costs that alone ???

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

You guys on here beggar belief u really do. You've done nothing but criticise Jason over the past few days questioning the blokes integrity and business practice's and u wonder why he doesn't regard u as a "friend" in cyberspace and blocks you. Jeez. Unbelievable.

His integrity has been tarnished and his business practise is dishonest bordering on fraudulent so there's nothing to question! I like the bloke, so obviously I should have just said "there, there, don't worry you've done nothing wrong" don't think so! If your happy to overlook his wrong doings that's says a lot about your own integrity

"You like the bloke???" I would hate to think what u would have said if you didnt ffs.
and as you don't know me what gives you the right to question my integrity? I've never met you so would never make any snap judgement on your integrity or personal qualities based purely on your opinions that are published on here regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I didn't question your integrity, read what I said, IF YOUR HAPPY TO OVERLOOK HIS WRONG DOINGS THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOUR OWN INTEGRITY. At no point did I say you were happy to overlook his wrong doings, or say you have no integrity. top and bottom is I do like Jason but don't and won't condone his actions

Lol. Oh I'm giggling. You're just making yourself look a complete arse. so Dave u like Jason? And id wager you've never met the bloke or even spoke to him? So u like him based purely on a few lines he's wrote on a website or a forum, umm creepy. prob a bit like I would imagine you like Trevor as well? And that would also be based on the fact he makes great cues and writes some sensible things when he posts on here, and not because you've actually met him in the flesh or have actually purchased a cue from any of the top UK based cuemakers, but I bet you "like" them all don't you.
Or perhaps you've served them both on the drive in whilst discussing the origins of your Cuecraft C7 was it?

What was it you said about never making snap judgements based on comments on a forum, so you're a lying, hypocritical c**t. My basis for "liking" Jason was formed on conversations mainly on fb, over pool and cues. Not that its any of your concern. As for Trevor i believe he's an honest craftsman, other than that can't say I like or dislike the bloke. And that was a cue craft C70 which I have as a backup you stuck up snob! You've shown you're a liar, snob, hypocrite, oh and at least working a drive through is an honest living, unlike ripping people off with Thai cues and selling them as your OWN, something you clearly think is acceptable

If you're ever up my way burgerboy look me up I am sure we can sort this out with our cues at50 paces rather than from behind your little kiosk or keypad. and I don't believe you know my profession either little man, but I take great solice in the knowledge I'm not the only person you've insulted on here this afternoon. I mean I'd hate to think you "liked" me in your special way as well.

[throtts]

If you're ever up my way burgerboy look me up I am sure we can sort this out with our cues at50 paces rather than from behind your little kiosk or keypad. and I don't believe you know my profession either little man, but I take great solice in the knowledge I'm not the only person you've insulted on here this afternoon. I mean I'd hate to think you "liked" me in your special way as well.

Come on, guys. The c word is one horrible word and now your disclosing Dave's occupation. Pack it up, boys..

[willtyson]

Come on, guys. The c word is one horrible word and now your disclosing Dave's occupation. Pack it up, boys..

Yeah, really disgusting thing to say IMO. If someone had called me that I think I'd have said more than revealing flips burgers!

[Dave Walton]

Could you explain why that particular cue is spliced differently as Crispian has shown and why it is spliced top and bottom first when it appears you don't usually do it that way? I feel that by answering those questions you could have helped clear the shadow of doubt days ago Andy. As I've posted a couple of times now the only cue of yours I've seen in the flesh was a very good cue, and your prices are sensible

Dave i always splice like that, which way would you splice if you wanted the front splice in line with the chevrons

Fair enough Andy, I've never spliced a cue, still think I would do it sides first the way I've seen the majority of cues constructed. There's no reason you shouldn't splice top and bottom first imo it looks better not having the splice lines visible running down the face of the cue, thank you for answering my question

[Dave Walton]

Do they really buy the basic spliced up cue for only £60 ????
That's a lot cheaper than i would imagine
Surely shipping and customs costs that alone ???

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

You guys on here beggar belief u really do. You've done nothing but criticise Jason over the past few days questioning the blokes integrity and business practice's and u wonder why he doesn't regard u as a "friend" in cyberspace and blocks you. Jeez. Unbelievable.

His integrity has been tarnished and his business practise is dishonest bordering on fraudulent so there's nothing to question! I like the bloke, so obviously I should have just said "there, there, don't worry you've done nothing wrong" don't think so! If your happy to overlook his wrong doings that's says a lot about your own integrity

"You like the bloke???" I would hate to think what u would have said if you didnt ffs.
and as you don't know me what gives you the right to question my integrity? I've never met you so would never make any snap judgement on your integrity or personal qualities based purely on your opinions that are published on here regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I didn't question your integrity, read what I said, IF YOUR HAPPY TO OVERLOOK HIS WRONG DOINGS THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOUR OWN INTEGRITY. At no point did I say you were happy to overlook his wrong doings, or say you have no integrity. top and bottom is I do like Jason but don't and won't condone his actions

Lol. Oh I'm giggling. You're just making yourself look a complete arse. so Dave u like Jason? And id wager you've never met the bloke or even spoke to him? So u like him based purely on a few lines he's wrote on a website or a forum, umm creepy. prob a bit like I would imagine you like Trevor as well? And that would also be based on the fact he makes great cues and writes some sensible things when he posts on here, and not because you've actually met him in the flesh or have actually purchased a cue from any of the top UK based cuemakers, but I bet you "like" them all don't you.
Or perhaps you've served them both on the drive in whilst discussing the origins of your Cuecraft C7 was it?

What was it you said about never making snap judgements based on comments on a forum, so you're a lying, hypocritical c**t. My basis for "liking" Jason was formed on conversations mainly on fb, over pool and cues. Not that its any of your concern. As for Trevor i believe he's an honest craftsman, other than that can't say I like or dislike the bloke. And that was a cue craft C70 which I have as a backup you stuck up snob! You've shown you're a liar, snob, hypocrite, oh and at least working a drive through is an honest living, unlike ripping people off with Thai cues and selling them as your OWN, something you clearly think is acceptable

If you're ever up my way burgerboy look me up I am sure we can sort this out with our cues at50 paces rather than from behind your little kiosk or keypad. and I don't believe you know my profession either little man, but I take great solice in the knowledge I'm not the only person you've insulted on here this afternoon. I mean I'd hate to think you "liked" me in your special way as well.

You're an idiot, I'm not interested in your profession, and you don't know mine, I used the drive through as an example of an honest job, you started having a go at me and now you're threatening me but saying I'm the one hiding behind my keyboard, lmfao that's a good one, you should change your career to stand up comedian.

[Dave Walton]

If you're ever up my way burgerboy look me up I am sure we can sort this out with our cues at50 paces rather than from behind your little kiosk or keypad. and I don't believe you know my profession either little man, but I take great solice in the knowledge I'm not the only person you've insulted on here this afternoon. I mean I'd hate to think you "liked" me in your special way as well.

Come on, guys. The c word is one horrible word and now your disclosing Dave's occupation. Pack it up, boys..

he's revealed nothing, just talking more crap which is all he's capable of, his threats are laughable at best! Read his comments about not making judgements when infact that's exactly what he's doing, utter clown. As for the C word, after the **** he had said about me in my eyes was justified!

[Dave Walton]

Come on, guys. The c word is one horrible word and now your disclosing Dave's occupation. Pack it up, boys..

Yeah, really disgusting thing to say IMO. If someone had called me that I think I'd have said more than revealing flips burgers!

You're entitled to your opinion Will, funny though that you criticize my use of the C word yet its okay for for archcalf to say whatever crap he wants about me.

[willtyson]

You're entitled to your opinion Will, funny though that you criticize my use of the C word yet its okay for for archcalf to say whatever crap he wants about me.

Just don't like that word in particular, say what you want about each other, it doesn't worry me.