R.i.p

[laverda]

Essentially it boils down to the subjective view of what handmade is in the eyes of one man compared to the eyes of another.

On the contrary, it boils down to WHERE the materials are sourced from AND how much is involved in the HANDMADE part AND whether or not any or all of that is disclosed at the time of order... which is evident by the changes Jason has made on his website. These are obviously things which he appreciates are important even if only after the proverbial **** has hit the fan. If it was JUST about the definition of hand made he would have explained that on his website instead of dealing with the locations materials are sourced from... and that in itself deals with the disclosure issue.
Mick

[hotpot]

i wouldnt just back away theres still lots of cuemakers who make cues generally in the traditional way,ive always stated mine now start from the dowel stage if people arnt happy with that dont ask me to make a cue its that easy,but most cuemakers start by doing the whole business my decision is that i dont think i could go to a woodyard and pick a piece of ash and say this will make a gd cue,the cuemakers who are capable still end up with a lot of wastage this is why the cues they make cost a lot,the dowels i buy are in my opinion up to a ultimate standard and i dont have to bin any so was the best option for me.

Thumbs up 100 % honesty ..

[mrbluejay]

Lol, I'm not bothering with this anymore. Enjoy your tunnel vision chaps.

http://www.jasonowencues.com/questions-and-answers.html

Will you have allowed your friendship/admiration for Jason to cloud your judgement here. It is obvious what he did was wrong, otherwise why would he have changed his website.

I too like Jason, when I bought a cue from him, he was very attentive and answered all emails in a fairly short time frame, when he hit a snag he suggested a solution, which worked quite well. The finished cue looked pretty good to me, although another cuemaker thought it not tip-top. I sold the cue as it was just not for me, no problem with Jason.

I would even buy another cue from Jason, especially as he is now being transparent. I know what I would be buying and could make an informed decision. Surely you cannot disagree with this?

[coomsey76]

Lol, I'm not bothering with this anymore. Enjoy your tunnel vision chaps.

http://www.jasonowencues.com/questions-and-answers.html

With all due respect Will this whole situation isn't about the playability of a cue....... It's about the transparency of pricing and how the cue is made.

[humperdingle]

i wouldnt just back away theres still lots of cuemakers who make cues generally in the traditional way,ive always stated mine now start from the dowel stage if people arnt happy with that dont ask me to make a cue its that easy,but most cuemakers start by doing the whole business my decision is that i dont think i could go to a woodyard and pick a piece of ash and say this will make a gd cue,the cuemakers who are capable still end up with a lot of wastage this is why the cues they make cost a lot,the dowels i buy are in my opinion up to a ultimate standard and i dont have to bin any so was the best option for me.

Just my personal reaction mate - perhaps I just have a romantic view of the cue handcrafter, who buys exotic hardwoods from abroad, ash or maple from a timberyard and can disappear for a while to the workshop to come out with a lovely cue.

I'm sure some still do this, and will charge a premium for it, but that's my idea of what a 'handmade cue', is.

I like the idea of a photographic scrapbook, showing a cue's gradual transformation from strips of timber to finished product. Perhaps the only way to prove beyond doubt, and would make a great selling point, indeed for re-selling, too.

[Dave Walton]

tell me something guys. you buy a cue purely to play snooker with, some of you will do it well some of u won't, I have no idea what level you play to and am not bothered. Let's say u pay £300 for said piece of timber regardless of design. Its a wonderful cue its spot on to what you requested. You knock in several large breaks over the course of the next few weeks and have contacted the maker/builder/supplier to say how chuffed you are, best cue ever, feels lovely, great balance, superb finish, best grain you've ever seen, bargain of the cemtury , would even recommend u to the mother in law............

But wait someone you don't know never met haven't really heard of as a cuemaker, someone you didn't consider when u did your research when u decided who was going to make your cue comes on and casts doubts about the origins or work behind your new wonderbat and all of a sudden its no better than the type of bat u would find in Argos or a sports store????

pleeeeeeease get a grip, its still the same cue you've been playing well with in the last few weeks and chances are unless you let your mental state be effected and u look after it, it always will be.

Totally missing the point, nobody is questioning the quality of the Thai cues, the problem is people have been conned into paying over the odds for a cue meant to be made by someone paying for their time and craftsmanship and not receiving what they paid for! If they wanted a Thai cue they would have bought a Thai cue

[archalf1471]

Yes mythman I am. Have had it up on a couple of occasions. Firstly before the two threads were started.........hopeful rather than optimistic is a term I think I will use now lol

If it helps, I really like the look of the cue.



I was tempted to buy the cue pictured in the start of this thread when it was first put on TSF for sale, but didn't have the funds.

Spent it on an O'min instead.

Thank you. Good luck with the Omin, the irony being a very very good Thai cue lol!

[mythman69]

Thank you. Good luck with the Omin, the irony being a very very good Thai cue lol!

O'Min do make some lovely cues. I have two of them.

[involver]

Well I'm glad it all makes no difference to you but I had a choice of buying a $400 Thai cue made to my exact spec and shipped to me here in Australia within a couple of weeks or a 'Handmade' cue for +$600 plus 6 month wait from one of the guys who have confessed to being a part of all this and I went for the 'Handmade' and added cost because I thought I was buying a premium product for not too much more than the Thai. Would I have waited the extra months and extra dollars had I known the outsourcing involved... HELL NO...

We have a thing here in Australia called 'truth in advertising' and that is NOT what has been going on. I'm sorry to say but Andy and ALL other cue makers should be willing to absolutely prove their innocence in all this even if they have only been implicated by the actions of a few other cue suppliers that are certainly involved in this. The whole industry needs to be willing to be transparent and the blame lies with no one but the frauds who have brought the rest of the industry into disrepute.
Mick

well said, mate

[JasonOwen]

Ah I should just disappear like the rest,

I have been honest.
I have got my housekeeping in order mainly so that when this subject pops up again I won't have to get involved, whichever way I'm working.
I have spoken privately to anyone concerned with their cue.
I have had some orders cancelled.
Any quotes I've done this week, I've added a foot note saying I may source materials from Thailand.
I have to say, no other makers are divulging if they work from blanks, where they buy their materials from??

I didn't realise the implications of Handmade being on my badges. It was something back when I started that just seemed natural to state. Now I realise that hand made implies everything including tapering the shaft from a square, I have removed it from everywhere associated with me, my badges will be reworked but will take a month to come through so there will be a delay on that.

I have been naive, not intentionally deceitful. I have only ever wanted to produce a top quality product.
My prices are similar range to the customised cues.

[EnterTheDragon]

Just my personal reaction mate - perhaps I just have a romantic view of the cue handcrafter, who buys exotic hardwoods from abroad, ash or maple from a timberyard and can disappear for a while to the workshop to come out with a lovely cue.

I'm sure some still do this, and will charge a premium for it, but that's my idea of what a 'handmade cue', is.

I like the idea of a photographic scrapbook, showing a cue's gradual transformation from strips of timber to finished product. Perhaps the only way to prove beyond doubt, and would make a great selling point, indeed for re-selling, too.

That actually sounds like a good idea, but understanding the workload that for example Mr. TW has, i doubt he would be keen on taking pictures all the time..

[humperdingle]

That actually sounds like a good idea, but understanding the workload that for example Mr. TW has, i doubt he would be keen on taking pictures all the time..

Indeed. Half a dozen pics would add a couple of minutes... he could work it out pro-rata

[luke-h]

Well Robert Osbourne doesn't have any involvement on TSF although there is the connection to Raymo. And while MW has been no secret to anyone paying attention - he's all but admitted it indirectly himself with his own comments - I suspect that a lot of people let it lie because he contributes in a lot of other ways and offers innovations that other cue makers haven't.

But an earlier question I asked still hasn't been answered, and I thought Crispian was warming up to it - how have these threads affected his ability to continue ordering imported cues? I suspected that he might have already been cut off and that was why he'd started it in the first place.

raymo has been with robert osbourne all week, his words exactly

[Dave Walton]

ultimately any of these threads that continue in this vain where cuemaker/suppliers integrity is being called into question will be closed down by the site admin, the same as last night's thread was, so I think all the hard work and contributions correct or speculative by all concerned and will leave a lot of potential customers very confused to say the least

archalf1471 - I noticed you are selling your 2 months old Andy Travis cue on ebay UK . . .

Yes mythman I am. Have had it up on a couple of occasions. Firstly before the two threads were started.........hopeful rather than optimistic is a term I think I will use now lol

On the subject of misleading, that cue isn't spliced anything like a connoisseur, but you've advertised it as a copy of a connoisseur lol

[EnterTheDragon]

Indeed. Half a dozen pics would add a couple of minutes... he could work it out pro-rata

Besides, having sanded ebony for a couple of hours the last thing you wanna touch is a digital camera. Trust me.