R.i.p

[trevs1]

I think I might buy one of these Thai cues next, see how I like them. Might as well. All of this the past few days could have a back fire effect on some of the cue makers here, think about it..

Well yes, that's why I don't like the practise. It HAS TO cast a shadow of suspicion over everyone. I hate it.

[Dave Walton]

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

There should have been a recall on the 8 cues and a offer of a full refund or he should told the customers to keep the sticks while he builds them what they previously thought they was going to get and that's UK Handmades...If there was more though, now that would be a risky offer ...

Did you guys miss the reply from Jason where he said he had contacted those involved with the 8 and has sorted it with them (only 1 person was making demands of him out of the 7). I would think that if any of Jasons cues come up for resale then a simple email to Jason to ask if the cue number was one of the 8 would be answered immediately.

I don't know about you but it seems to me that if a seller of a Jason Owen '8' cue tried to sell it off as not being one of the 8 then surely that reflects on their character and if only 1 person out of the 7 owners (Jason is the 8th) are unsatisfied and trying make demands of Jason and the others are indeed happy with their cues and Jasons apology then there's only likely to be one sold out of frustration...

Just my 2 cents but as a recent recipient of a Jason Owen cue and having spoken directly to the guy myself I think I'm qualified to speak. I wonder how many of the other folks here making demands of Jason have actually purchased from him? I know he is trying to make the necessary changes to his business and he is making his way through dealing with his actual customers and their concerns so its no wonder to me that he would shut out the other noises while he does the right thing in talking to those who have made purchases from him.

Again, just my 2 cents
Mick

Jason said he'd contacted most not all, and point blank refused to give the customer who sold his on before Jason was exposed. The I think it was 40 pound in compensation. I think some sort of gesture of good will to that customer would have been right, the guy who bought it through no fault of the seller has also been ripped off through Jasons dishonesty. So it'd already happened! Yes it would be dishonest of the owner to sell his cue on without disclosing that it was one of the 8! Jason though is still responsible for selling the cue dishonesty in the first place

[throtts]

Well yes, that's why I don't like the practise. It HAS TO cast a shadow of suspicion over everyone. I hate it.

It's a shame to all the good guys.

Remember, trev, "one mans loss is another mans gain". ( I think you might be getting busier ). No comment needed, mate..

[arbitrage]

The bold above is not entirely correct my friend. Not in the UK anyway.

Labels, name badges or whatever is used to mark the origins and intellectual ownership of a product MUST NOT BE MISLEADING.

That law varies from product to product, but still, product labels or tags used to identify it, MUST NOT BE MISLEADING.

'IF' a product is badged with an individuals name or business name, (one who actually resides and trades from the UK),
with the only other text on that label / badge being "Hand made", then, that label / badge is most definitely miselading.

I'm pretty sure UK trading standards would see it as such too, but, whether they'd be bothered to instigate any proceeding is another matter.

Still, for anyone who has in the past, continues to or does in the future, use imported products to label them as their own, the real sting may be in lost credibility and respect. I say that as in doing so, they would be making their integrity appear very questionable.

Of course, I might be talking crap.

hi trev, thanks for the reply. there is a lot of "elasticity" in the UK ordinances about "country of origin" and descriptors like "handmade". as a general rule, it applies to whether the product was MATERIALLY finished in the UK or MATERIALLY hand finished (i have included a snippet of the ordinances within the 1968 trade act which is the legal framework for regulating such issues below)

therefore, if a cuemaker imports a shaft but does the splice work and finishing in the UK, then it is considered legal to label the cue "made in the UK". by the same token, if a cuemaker machines down a shaft (as robert osborne or many other cue makers do for some of their cue lines) then follows it up with hand planing and splicing then it can still be considered "hand made"

however, if you import a finished cue and just stick a label on it then it is illegal to label it as "made in the UK". by the same token, i'm assuming that if you do 99% of the work by machine and just hand polish it, it's also considered misleading or illegal to label the product "handmade"

in most of the cases i'm reading about here, it appears that the cuemakers in question have imported shafts and then done the splicing and finishing in the UK. labeling these cues "made in the UK" and "handmade" would therefore be entirely legal (i make this assumption based on legal literature and w/o the consultation of my legal advisers). now, if there are any instances where the buyer suspects that the cuemaker just imported the entire cue and mislead him/her into believing that they made the cue themselves, then i would urge the buyer in question to report this incident to the authorities, as this most likely constitutes fraud / deceptive marketing

i'm staying away from the "morality" as well as the "brand value" argument for now as these issues are highly subjective. for example, we know that a leading cuemaker has more than 10 artisans working under him to produce cues badged under his name and it hasn't diminished the value of his cues one bit. my question would be - he is outsourcing part or even most of the work to workers under him (albeit in the UK) - what is the difference between that and sourcing semi-finished shafts from thailand? if the quality control is done properly, i would suggest not a lot? i would just say personally i'm not adverse to cuemakers outsourcing part of their production or importing "components" for finishing in the UK - however, i would evaluate how much i would pay vs a cue that is entirely handmade by the cuemaker



(The Act is the 1968 Trade Descriptions Act.)

"_ Where is the country of origin?
Goods are deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change.
The term “substantial change’1 is not defined in the Act, although an Order made under it explicitly states that the process of silver-plating stainless-steel cutlery does not constitute a “substantial change”. Generally, therefore, the meaning of this phrase is left to the trader to determine, but it would ultimately be for a court to decide, taking account of an ordinary person’s perception of the circumstances surrounding the individual case, whether the particular country or place specified is indeed where the last substantial change took place. For example, placing a finished product into a container or outer box or carrying out a simple finishing process on a product would probably not be considered to be substantially changing the nature of the product. On the other hand. creating a garment from cloth, albeit imported. would be likely to be considered to result in such a change. If you are in doubt about where your goods originate, you should consult your local Trading Standards Office, or seek legal advice.

[Dave Walton]

Do they really buy the basic spliced up cue for only £60 ????
That's a lot cheaper than i would imagine
Surely shipping and customs costs that alone ???

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

You guys on here beggar belief u really do. You've done nothing but criticise Jason over the past few days questioning the blokes integrity and business practice's and u wonder why he doesn't regard u as a "friend" in cyberspace and blocks you. Jeez. Unbelievable.

His integrity has been tarnished and his business practise is dishonest bordering on fraudulent so there's nothing to question! I like the bloke, so obviously I should have just said "there, there, don't worry you've done nothing wrong" don't think so! If your happy to overlook his wrong doings that's says a lot about your own integrity

[Dave Walton]

I think I might buy one of these Thai cues next, see how I like them. Might as well. All of this the past few days could have a back fire effect on some of the cue makers here, think about it..

Well yes, that's why I don't like the practise. It HAS TO cast a shadow of suspicion over everyone. I hate it.

Exactly Trevor, some will tarnish all cuemakers with the same brush, the honest cuemakers will have their integrity questioned because of a few greedy sods trying to make fast cash, its not fair on the customer or the honest craftsmen, you being one of the honest ones in my view along with Crispian who should be thanked for exposing the conmen

[throtts]

hi trev, thanks for the reply. there is a lot of "elasticity" in the UK ordinances about "country of origin" and descriptors like "handmade". as a general rule, it applies to whether the product was MATERIALLY finished in the UK or MATERIALLY hand finished (i have included a snippet of the ordinances within the 1968 trade act which is the legal framework for regulating such issues below)

therefore, if a cuemaker imports a shaft but does the splice work and finishing in the UK, then it is considered legal to label the cue "made in the UK". by the same token, if a cuemaker machines down a shaft (as robert osborne or many other cue makers do for some of their cue lines) then follows it up with hand planing and splicing then it can still be considered "hand made"

however, if you import a finished cue and just stick a label on it then it is illegal to label it as "made in the UK". by the same token, i'm assuming that if you do 99% of the work by machine and just hand polish it, it's also considered misleading or illegal to label the product "handmade"

in most of the cases i'm reading about here, it appears that the cuemakers in question have imported shafts and then done the splicing and finishing in the UK. labeling these cues "made in the UK" and "handmade" would therefore be entirely legal (i make this assumption based on legal literature and w/o the consultation of my legal advisers). now, if there are any instances where the seller suspects that the cuemaker just imported the entire cue and mislead the buyer into believing that they made the cue themselves, then i would urge the buyer in question to report this incident to the authorities, as this most likely constitutes fraud / deceptive marketing

i'm staying away from the "morality" as well as the "brand value" argument for now as these issues are highly subjective. i would just say personally i'm not adverse to cuemakers outsourcing part of their production or importing "components" for finishing in the UK - however, i would evaluate how much i would pay vs a cue that is entirely handmade by the cuemaker



(The Act is the 1968 Trade Descriptions Act.)

"_ Where is the country of origin?
Goods are deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change.
The term “substantial change’1 is not defined in the Act, although an Order made under it explicitly states that the process of silver-plating stainless-steel cutlery does not constitute a “substantial change”. Generally, therefore, the meaning of this phrase is left to the trader to determine, but it would ultimately be for a court to decide, taking account of an ordinary person’s perception of the circumstances surrounding the individual case, whether the particular country or place specified is indeed where the last substantial change took place. For example, placing a finished product into a container or outer box or carrying out a simple finishing process on a product would probably not be considered to be substantially changing the nature of the product. On the other hand. creating a garment from cloth, albeit imported. would be likely to be considered to result in such a change. If you are in doubt about where your goods originate, you should consult your local Trading Standards Office, or seek legal advice.

Yep, it's all still an open to debate then after quickly reading all that ( in other words a big money spin off for prosecutors and defence teams ). Maybe the wording "Hand Finished In The UK" would be more suitable for such trades like cue making.

[old school]

New ferrule & tip , re-taper and re-grain , £30 at Coutts , unless there has been a price rise . Coutts work is absolutely first class and is admired by fellow cue builders as well. Being someone who has stood in his workshop and seen even the new laminated shafts in the " pre finished " stage i.e. the start of the tapering process , glued up in clamps , I can say Dave makes his own cues.I have been in Dave Browns , Tony Glovers ,Andy Travis ( garage attached to the house ) and Kev Muncasters workshop ( before he retired ) .All the aforementioned have / had all the necessary tools , machinery and raw materials to make cues . Jim Evans is a personal friend and I have had several of Jims cues ( cock ups as well as pretty ones ) and he is someone I shall continue to buy from.Trevor White and Robin Cook as well as Dave at Master Craft and Paul at Stamford are all , in my opinion cue builders Anyone I have mentioned in this post I would not hesitate to buy from again. As many of you know I am a fan of older cues and their history. If you look at Peradon as a company , they have made cues for other people for over 70 years , supplying " wholesale cues " or special order to even local sports shops to re-brand as their own.Smith & Nelson did it , Lewis & Wilson & Aeon have been modern counterparts , until they closed , Dave at Craftsman has made " blanks " for other builders , so the practice of wholesalers and blanks and re-branding has , as Jim says , been going on for years and years. It is only now , with more information available and more knowledgeable clients/buyers/cue sports enthusiasts that people have become more aware.If the internet and forums and the means to disseminate such information had existed before , would enthusiasts have paid H & O prices for a cue made in Coventry , badged ,and then sold in London ? I think not , but then only a select few or the " trade " knew what was going on.I realise the two issues are separate i.e. English made " blanks " being sold in the UK ( historically ) as opposed to Thai blanks being imported ( present ), but because of the fact that we live in a " global economy " then arent Thai makers doing the same as what English makers have done in the past , wholesaleing blanks or part builds for " the trade "? That said I do think that buyers should be helped to be made more aware of a cues " authenticity " or what source it came from .Apologies for the long post.

[jrc750]

.... if a cuemaker imports a shaft but does the splice work and finishing in the UK, then it is considered legal to label the cue "made in the UK". by the same token, if a cuemaker machines down a shaft (as robert osborne or many other cue makers do for some of their cue lines) then follows it up with hand planing and splicing then it can still be considered "hand made"

however, if you import a finished cue and just stick a label on it then it is illegal to label it as "made in the UK"....

Yes no problem at all with the 1st examples in my eyes, BUT the 2nd example was what the other thread was about i believe, ie a certain cue maker (use that term loosely ) is buying in finished Thai cues and basically just re-badging them and selling them on as his own.
Crispian does this on his "customised" cues and charges a reasonable £240, the so far undisclosed maker is charging £400+ i believe

[arbitrage]

Yes no problem at all with the 1st examples in my eyes, BUT the 2nd example was what the other thread was about i believe, ie a certain cue maker (use that term loosely ) is buying in finished Thai cues and basically just re-badging them and selling them on as his own.
Crispian does this on his "customised" cues and charges a reasonable £240, the so far undisclosed maker is charging £400+ i believe

i see. i have heard that a certain "old name" brand's cues are entirely made in thailand and badged under his name. note that what he is doing is not illegal - it's the same as "pierre cardin" giving his designs to a vietnamese factory to manufacture and then selling it around the world. personally, i wouldn't buy this brand's cues as i don't believe he can control the quality sufficiently if it is 100% outsourced. my original points are 1) the "product descriptions" for cues don't provide the buyer with enough info and therefore it is the onus of the buyer to check for himself/herself (and not make assumptions) and 2) within a legal framework in the UK or otherwise, there is no "fraud" or "deceptive marketing" involved as a lot of people are screaming on this forum - point being you can't prove it in a court of law

[jrc750]

Thing is tho, if you approach a cue maker asking if they make the cues themselves, they are surely unlikely to say "no mate, we buy them from Thailand cheap, and just stick our badge on them " just isn't going to work is it, if they were honest and told you, the word would get around and no more sales lol

[throtts]

point being you can't prove it in a court of law

You can certainly try though and with good homework, along with the pressure, you never really know 100% what the outcome will be.

I see your point with just a name on the rebadging with no origins, who buying them ffs anyway.

The past few days have changed the way players now buy cues, serious players anyway.

[arbitrage]

Thing is tho, if you approach a cue maker asking if they make the cues themselves, they are surely unlikely to say "no mate, we buy them from Thailand cheap, and just stick our badge on them " just isn't going to work is it, if they were honest and told you, the word would get around and no more sales lol

actually i asked the cue shop owner where the "old name" cues were made and he point blank told me "thailand" (that might have been due to the fact that i'm a long time customer and friend though). in my last post i quoted "pierre cardin" because this is exactly what he did - and during the course of a decade, his brand went from "high price point designer" to "mid price point mass"

so yes, people will decide on what value to ascribe to the product once they know these facts. i also pointed out that we all know a certain cuemaker who has more than 10 artisans under him working on the cues - and the value of his cues have appreciated and not diminished. so, this is essentially a consumer perception of value and brand value over time issue

[archalf1471]

Do they really buy the basic spliced up cue for only £60 ????
That's a lot cheaper than i would imagine
Surely shipping and customs costs that alone ???

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

You guys on here beggar belief u really do. You've done nothing but criticise Jason over the past few days questioning the blokes integrity and business practice's and u wonder why he doesn't regard u as a "friend" in cyberspace and blocks you. Jeez. Unbelievable.

His integrity has been tarnished and his business practise is dishonest bordering on fraudulent so there's nothing to question! I like the bloke, so obviously I should have just said "there, there, don't worry you've done nothing wrong" don't think so! If your happy to overlook his wrong doings that's says a lot about your own integrity

"You like the bloke???" I would hate to think what u would have said if you didnt ffs.
and as you don't know me what gives you the right to question my integrity? I've never met you so would never make any snap judgement on your integrity or personal qualities based purely on your opinions that are published on here regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

[mrbluejay]

actually i asked the cue shop owner where the "old name" cues were made and he point blank told me "thailand" (that might have been due to the fact that i'm a long time customer and friend though). in my last post i quoted "pierre cardin" because this is exactly what he did - and during the course of a decade, his brand went from "high price point designer" to "mid price point mass"

so yes, people will decide on what value to ascribe to the product once they know these facts. i also pointed out that we all know a certain cuemaker who has more than 10 artisans under him working on the cues - and the value of his cues have appreciated and not diminished. so, this is essentially a consumer perception of value and brand value over time issue

The Pierre Cardin analogy is not a good one. Most people would know he is an Italian fashion designer (Probably assume he was French actually), but the difference is that his clothes would have a label which would denote the country of manufacture - clear and transparent.

Now if I were to buy a cue, which said Scotland on the badge along with Handmade, what am I to assume? Now if such a product did exist and it was in fact made on the other side of the world, I would call that misleading, would you not agree?