R.i.p

[trevs1]

hi trev, thanks for the reply. there is a lot of "elasticity" in the UK ordinances about "country of origin" and descriptors like "handmade". as a general rule, it applies to whether the product was MATERIALLY finished in the UK or MATERIALLY hand finished (i have included a snippet of the ordinances within the 1968 trade act which is the legal framework for regulating such issues below)

therefore, if a cuemaker imports a shaft but does the splice work and finishing in the UK, then it is considered legal to label the cue "made in the UK". by the same token, if a cuemaker machines down a shaft (as robert osborne or many other cue makers do for some of their cue lines) then follows it up with hand planing and splicing then it can still be considered "hand made"

however, if you import a finished cue and just stick a label on it then it is illegal to label it as "made in the UK". by the same token, i'm assuming that if you do 99% of the work by machine and just hand polish it, it's also considered misleading or illegal to label the product "handmade"

in most of the cases i'm reading about here, it appears that the cuemakers in question have imported shafts and then done the splicing and finishing in the UK. labeling these cues "made in the UK" and "handmade" would therefore be entirely legal (i make this assumption based on legal literature and w/o the consultation of my legal advisers). now, if there are any instances where the buyer suspects that the cuemaker just imported the entire cue and mislead him/her into believing that they made the cue themselves, then i would urge the buyer in question to report this incident to the authorities, as this most likely constitutes fraud / deceptive marketing

i'm staying away from the "morality" as well as the "brand value" argument for now as these issues are highly subjective. for example, we know that a leading cuemaker has more than 10 artisans working under him to produce cues badged under his name and it hasn't diminished the value of his cues one bit. my question would be - he is outsourcing part or even most of the work to workers under him (albeit in the UK) - what is the difference between that and sourcing semi-finished shafts from thailand? if the quality control is done properly, i would suggest not a lot? i would just say personally i'm not adverse to cuemakers outsourcing part of their production or importing "components" for finishing in the UK - however, i would evaluate how much i would pay vs a cue that is entirely handmade by the cuemaker



(The Act is the 1968 Trade Descriptions Act.)

"_ Where is the country of origin?
Goods are deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change.
The term “substantial change’1 is not defined in the Act, although an Order made under it explicitly states that the process of silver-plating stainless-steel cutlery does not constitute a “substantial change”. Generally, therefore, the meaning of this phrase is left to the trader to determine, but it would ultimately be for a court to decide, taking account of an ordinary person’s perception of the circumstances surrounding the individual case, whether the particular country or place specified is indeed where the last substantial change took place. For example, placing a finished product into a container or outer box or carrying out a simple finishing process on a product would probably not be considered to be substantially changing the nature of the product. On the other hand. creating a garment from cloth, albeit imported. would be likely to be considered to result in such a change. If you are in doubt about where your goods originate, you should consult your local Trading Standards Office, or seek legal advice.

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

[j6uk]

This for me is closer to reality and I'm starting to look decrepit and pathetic hunched over this vacuous puter reading this stuff..

You vultures on here need to take a good hard look at yourselves and wonder what damage you've already done to some peoples livelihood already with your misplaced idle gossip. "Oh the dishonesty, oh get a life!" None of you were going to buy a cue of of them anyway so what does it matter, as long as it kept you entertained over the weekend in your shallow cyber world that's all that counts ultimately for your sad sorry existence.

[Andy Travis]

When all this is finished and you all realise i have never added my handmade badge to any other cue than my own, appologies will be accepted via paypal to my email address below.

Andy Travis

[jim evans]

LOL Nice One mate

[renzie67]

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

Excellent post , Why has it taken so long if it has been going on for years and years to come to the fore ?
Also monkey see monkey do I certainly would not blame the new kids on the block and I feel this is where
Crispian got it wrong and was gutless , he went after the monkeys and not the organ grinders.

[laverda]

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

Nice concise explanation... but sadly the answer that will come back at you (from one poster at least) will be that we are too thick to work all this out and its our fault for not asking the relevant questions in the first place... so lets ask some questions?

My question is where are the rest of the cue makers? I'll guess you all feel you have 'no need' to answer some colonial Aussie nobody but seeing as I'm pretty much fed up with this entire situation here goes...

DandyA, jrc750, crispian, send me the details and I'll present the questions to the 'big guys' that are yet to be named. Lets get this into the public domain and see the industry respond. You guys may feel like you have too much to lose but what are they gonna do to me, send me to Australia? I've got the time, energy and contacts to make this public (ex media employee)... Lets draw a line under all this and see who's got the guts to step up like Jason has... I may be thick headed but I'm a stubourn unintimidated thick headed Aussie...
Mick

[willtyson]

Nice one Laverda

[Dave Walton]

Do they really buy the basic spliced up cue for only £60 ????
That's a lot cheaper than i would imagine
Surely shipping and customs costs that alone ???

Think that's what it said on the other thread, could be totally wrong though. Wey looks like Jason has blocked me on fb, guess he doesn't like the truth lol, not so open an honest afterall. Personally don't believe it was only 8 Thai cues or that it was an error of judgement, rather I believe he got greedy and thought he could get away with it. Oh well, I thought he was a good bloke and wasn't looking to fall out with him, guess sh*t happens

You guys on here beggar belief u really do. You've done nothing but criticise Jason over the past few days questioning the blokes integrity and business practice's and u wonder why he doesn't regard u as a "friend" in cyberspace and blocks you. Jeez. Unbelievable.

His integrity has been tarnished and his business practise is dishonest bordering on fraudulent so there's nothing to question! I like the bloke, so obviously I should have just said "there, there, don't worry you've done nothing wrong" don't think so! If your happy to overlook his wrong doings that's says a lot about your own integrity

"You like the bloke???" I would hate to think what u would have said if you didnt ffs.
and as you don't know me what gives you the right to question my integrity? I've never met you so would never make any snap judgement on your integrity or personal qualities based purely on your opinions that are published on here regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I didn't question your integrity, read what I said, IF YOUR HAPPY TO OVERLOOK HIS WRONG DOINGS THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOUR OWN INTEGRITY. At no point did I say you were happy to overlook his wrong doings, or say you have no integrity. top and bottom is I do like Jason but don't and won't condone his actions

Lol. Oh I'm giggling. You're just making yourself look a complete arse. so Dave u like Jason? And id wager you've never met the bloke or even spoke to him? So u like him based purely on a few lines he's wrote on a website or a forum, umm creepy. prob a bit like I would imagine you like Trevor as well? And that would also be based on the fact he makes great cues and writes some sensible things when he posts on here, and not because you've actually met him in the flesh or have actually purchased a cue from any of the top UK based cuemakers, but I bet you "like" them all don't you.
Or perhaps you've served them both on the drive in whilst discussing the origins of your Cuecraft C7 was it?

What was it you said about never making snap judgements based on comments on a forum, so you're a lying, hypocritical c**t. My basis for "liking" Jason was formed on conversations mainly on fb, over pool and cues. Not that its any of your concern. As for Trevor i believe he's an honest craftsman, other than that can't say I like or dislike the bloke. And that was a cue craft C70 which I have as a backup you stuck up snob! You've shown you're a liar, snob, hypocrite, oh and at least working a drive through is an honest living, unlike ripping people off with Thai cues and selling them as your OWN, something you clearly think is acceptable

[itsnoteasy]

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

Trev, I think it has also been stated the cues were weighted and ferruled, I'm not saying this to prove any point but to ask you genuinely , if a nearly finished cue is bought in, sanded, polished, weighted , and a butt joint put in, and badged, what would be a reasonable price to ask for it ? Say as has been stated it costs anywhere between sixty to eighty pounds to buy and get the blanks here in the first place, thanks.

[Dave Walton]

dandy and jrc are quite right to keep any info they have private as they may wish to.
you only have to look at the way the vultures have attempted to crucify cuemakers and individuals who have offered up some honesty and opinion on here recently. Any info they have is only based on heresay and conversations or info they have garnered from other sources recently anyway rather than hard proof so why would they risk you lot ripping the guys to shreads anyway.

If one of the cuemakers you so clearly love and hang off their every word said it you would listen because that's how this place operates.
You vultures on here need to take a good hard look at yourselves and wonder what damage you've already done to some peoples livelihood already with your misplaced idle gossip. "Oh the dishonesty, oh get a life!" None of you were going to buy a cue of of them anyway so what does it matter, as long as it kept you entertained over the weekend in your shallow cyber world that's all that counts ultimately for your sad sorry existence.

Says the man who's been frequently commenting lmfao, are you really that thick, most of the people complaining on here have bought cues and know that their investment in an alleged high end cue will probably now have a much lower resale value. You're telling forum members to get a life, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a member that's been reading through all the comments and posting utter sh*te? Guess your OWN sad little existence isn't quite as wonderful as your deluded little mind thinks

[Dave Walton]

hi trev, thanks for the reply. there is a lot of "elasticity" in the UK ordinances about "country of origin" and descriptors like "handmade". as a general rule, it applies to whether the product was MATERIALLY finished in the UK or MATERIALLY hand finished (i have included a snippet of the ordinances within the 1968 trade act which is the legal framework for regulating such issues below)

therefore, if a cuemaker imports a shaft but does the splice work and finishing in the UK, then it is considered legal to label the cue "made in the UK". by the same token, if a cuemaker machines down a shaft (as robert osborne or many other cue makers do for some of their cue lines) then follows it up with hand planing and splicing then it can still be considered "hand made"

however, if you import a finished cue and just stick a label on it then it is illegal to label it as "made in the UK". by the same token, i'm assuming that if you do 99% of the work by machine and just hand polish it, it's also considered misleading or illegal to label the product "handmade"

in most of the cases i'm reading about here, it appears that the cuemakers in question have imported shafts and then done the splicing and finishing in the UK. labeling these cues "made in the UK" and "handmade" would therefore be entirely legal (i make this assumption based on legal literature and w/o the consultation of my legal advisers). now, if there are any instances where the buyer suspects that the cuemaker just imported the entire cue and mislead him/her into believing that they made the cue themselves, then i would urge the buyer in question to report this incident to the authorities, as this most likely constitutes fraud / deceptive marketing

i'm staying away from the "morality" as well as the "brand value" argument for now as these issues are highly subjective. for example, we know that a leading cuemaker has more than 10 artisans working under him to produce cues badged under his name and it hasn't diminished the value of his cues one bit. my question would be - he is outsourcing part or even most of the work to workers under him (albeit in the UK) - what is the difference between that and sourcing semi-finished shafts from thailand? if the quality control is done properly, i would suggest not a lot? i would just say personally i'm not adverse to cuemakers outsourcing part of their production or importing "components" for finishing in the UK - however, i would evaluate how much i would pay vs a cue that is entirely handmade by the cuemaker



(The Act is the 1968 Trade Descriptions Act.)

"_ Where is the country of origin?
Goods are deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change.
The term “substantial change’1 is not defined in the Act, although an Order made under it explicitly states that the process of silver-plating stainless-steel cutlery does not constitute a “substantial change”. Generally, therefore, the meaning of this phrase is left to the trader to determine, but it would ultimately be for a court to decide, taking account of an ordinary person’s perception of the circumstances surrounding the individual case, whether the particular country or place specified is indeed where the last substantial change took place. For example, placing a finished product into a container or outer box or carrying out a simple finishing process on a product would probably not be considered to be substantially changing the nature of the product. On the other hand. creating a garment from cloth, albeit imported. would be likely to be considered to result in such a change. If you are in doubt about where your goods originate, you should consult your local Trading Standards Office, or seek legal advice.

Lengthy post on top of lengthy post alert.!!!

Hi Arbitrage, thanks for the post.

Yes, I totally agree that what exactly makes something legitimately "hand made" or "made in the UK" is somewhat subjective and debatable. However, what we are discussing here is quite clear to me, and, displays questionable integrity. Simply on that basis alone, other questions could naturally follow which serve to do NOTHING but tarnish a reputation. Whether others here are able to see that or not, whether they take into account their personal liking for a maker or not, or whatever else they consider relevant to make such judgements, is their own decision to make.

What we know here in this discussion, set out in simple bullet points is....

1) A product is made (and I mean to completion and to a virtually finished item) outside the UK, by a foreign maker.

2) That product then, is imported into the UK by a UK maker, who has established a name for building cues in the UK, by hand and alone, and, badging them as such.

3) The imported product is sanded and polished, fitted with a badge and base joint and then sold.

4) The imported product is sold as coming from the makers workshop, without disclosure or information of its origins, bearing the same badge as the UK made product.

5) Due to point 4 above, it is reasonable for a buyer to assume the product was produced in the EXACT same way as those which he has built a reputation for producing.

6) The assumption of point 5, would most definitely lead any buyer to a willingness to pay a higher price for that product than he may for one which was imported.

7) Misleading or not.?

Now yes, I am referring to Jason here and have no problem in saying so. I am only using his example, which he himself has admitted to doing. I have no axe to grind against Jason and am not looking to fall out with anyone. I am simply stating my own view of this situation and raising points that perhaps need to be considered.

The problem as I see it though, and I know I am repeating myself from post 283 of the closed thread is this.....

If a maker actually makes his own cues, has made a reputation for doing so, BUT, also used / uses / will use imported cues (and yes I mean cues, not shafts) then how can anyone be sure that if they place an order for a cue made by that maker, they will get a cue made by that maker.?

You see, to me at least, the question of WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, is one that needs to be asked. To me anyway, that's clear.

The answer would be..... "to expedite the manufacturing process, reduce costs and to increase profits while minimising personal input"

It's for anyone who reads this, or who has some knowledge of this whole saga to decide what that tells them.

Apologies to Jason if it appears like I am singling him out. We know there are others who do this and have done for years and years, but as I said, it's just as an example of what we know and the issues that incurrs for that maker.

Spot on Trevor, arbitrage will no doubt still disagree though lol

[throtts]

Spot on Trevor, arbitrage will no doubt still disagree though lol

Yep, he will disagree. As long as his not rude with it, calling posters thick is bang out of order.

[Dave Walton]

When all this is finished and you all realise i have never added my handmade badge to any other cue than my own, appologies will be accepted via paypal to my email address below.

Andy Travis

Could you explain why that particular cue is spliced differently as Crispian has shown and why it is spliced top and bottom first when it appears you don't usually do it that way? I feel that by answering those questions you could have helped clear the shadow of doubt days ago Andy. As I've posted a couple of times now the only cue of yours I've seen in the flesh was a very good cue, and your prices are sensible

[Dave Walton]

Spot on Trevor, arbitrage will no doubt still disagree though lol

Yep, he will disagree. As long as his not rude with it, calling posters thick is bang out of order.

Correct, most of his drivel has been out of order

[arbitrage]

Correct, most of his drivel has been out of order

nice trolling pal - and i've never replied to any of your posts so i don't understand why you would post about me (not that i could really care about some cyber troll's drivel). you are exactly the type of poster whom i will go out of my way to insult simply because i can. not only are you ignorant about the issue being discussed, you have an inferiority complex which causes you to rage at others (not only other posters who don't share your ignorant opinions but also the cuemakers whom you don't have first hand facts about) - which makes you a prime target for cyber humiliation

no i don't care which is why i'm just going to block your ugly mug - here and on facebook