The Quality of Your Shaft?

[Master Blaster]

I'd love this question (below) settled if folk know the definitive answers because it's bugged me for some time.

Ok, so if (and I'm a believer) Parris Cues really do have access to secret stores of old ash blanks, then they have the materials to hand plane a superior shaft, e.g. the Ultimate. Ceteris paribus, old wood (air dried not kiln dried) is superior in the eyes and feel of many a player, it just feels more lively, less clunky, more woody on contact. I don't object to kiln dried per se, afterall, if you can buy a Thai O'min off ebay from Welsh Pool for £80, you really should be grateful for a well made cue and not worry about if the shaft is kiln dried. But when you spend £300+, I think it's a different matter. Some will say that buying expensive cues or custom cues is about getting personal specs, or designs. These are great aspects but for me, paramount (in expensive cues) is the quality of the materials and the finish.

I accept that within the two categories there are gradings, AAAA etc, but which cue makers are using old wood and which cue makers use kiln dried wood?

[strobbekoen]

The quality doesn't depend on if it's old wood or not. There are pro's and con's to both air dried and kiln dried. The latter is not a fixed process either, there are different ways to kiln dry wood. I had a Parris Ultimate about 15yrs ago and a few other Parris cues at the club. Good cues, but I've seen just as many good cues from others.

[Master Blaster]

The quality doesn't depend on if it's old wood or not. There are pro's and con's to both air dried and kiln dried. The latter is not a fixed process either, there are different ways to kiln dry wood. I had a Parris Ultimate about 15yrs ago and a few other Parris cues at the club. Good cues, but I've seen just as many good cues from others.

I disagree, I know many a player who swear by old wood. Some may indeed prefer the feel and touch of kiln-dried. But the question remains, who makes cues out of old wood?

[Kieran m]

I know many a player who don't even know what wood they use. What is your point ? Wood is wood I think the difference between air dried and kill dried will likely only be the time taken to dry, I'm no expert though.

To answer your original question- I don't think there is a definitive answer to what makes a good shaft, it's all subjective. Parris having 'secret' stashes of old ash is completely fanciful and ridiculous IMO.

[luke-h]

Toast is still toast whether its been made in a toaster, by the fire or under a grill....

[Master Blaster]

I know that fine furniture makers swear by old wood, air dried. Kiln wood splinters and has lost all it's life they say. Whether a kiln cue can last a century like a B&W remains to be seen but I doubt it. Folk who say it makes no difference obviously don't know that baking something down to 2% humidity (compared to about 30% for air dried) changes its structure. Kiln dried isn't as strong a timber over time either. Cue makers will take what they can get and with most ash going to the far-east, they don't get much choice in the UK. But that doesn't mean that kiln-dried is acceptable and for £700+ I'd want special materials in my cue, not the same wood as an £80 O'min otherwise why spend £700 in the UK? Especially when a custom cue made from kiln wood can be had for far less.

So the question remains, which cue makers use old wood and/or kiln wood? I believe Parris do use old wood as I've used Parris cues and they feel different to what I know is a kiln shaft.

[Kieran m]

Considering the fact that Parris himself says he has a yield of 2.5% of the Ash he looks at, where do you suppose he keeps all this old wood. The company must make 100s-1000s of cues a year that's a hell of a lot Of wood To have stored. How would John have predicted such high demand for his cues to know that he needs to stockpile and air dry vast amounts of it ?

To be fair there probably are differences between air dried and kiln dried wood, I'd imagine it mainly relates to stability. Hopefully somebody who actually knows the difference will tell us.

[billabong]

I know that fine furniture makers swear by old wood, air dried. Kiln wood splinters and has lost all it's life they say. Whether a kiln cue can last a century like a B&W remains to be seen but I doubt it. Folk who say it makes no difference obviously don't know that baking something down to 2% humidity (compared to about 30% for air dried) changes its structure. Kiln dried isn't as strong a timber over time either. Cue makers will take what they can get and with most ash going to the far-east, they don't get much choice in the UK. But that doesn't mean that kiln-dried is acceptable and for £700+ I'd want special materials in my cue, not the same wood as an £80 O'min otherwise why spend £700 in the UK? Especially when a custom cue made from kiln wood can be had for far less.

So the question remains, which cue makers use old wood and/or kiln wood? I believe Parris do use old wood as I've used Parris cues and they feel different to what I know is a kiln shaft.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just kiln dry the wood to 30% humidity then ?

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[strobbekoen]

Every wood has a natural moisture content equilibrium - kiln drying until it's dry as hell has no point, it will go back to an equilibrium.
As for which cue makers use what - well you'd have to ask or go see for yourself, but even then they might not want to tell you

[Master Blaster]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just kiln dry the wood to 30% humidity then ?

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Why not just air dry it instead? Parris has plenty of storage room for ash blanks dotted around. All the blanks from every Ultimate he's made would fit inside my living room. Blanks aren't that big, only slightly wider than the butt of a cue.

Old wood (air dried) feels different to play with, so my custom is going to be made from old wood or it won't be made at all, I'll simply find an old cue from decades gone by and have it modded. But if I knew which cue makers used what, I'd narrow down the list which would be useful.

[thai_son22]

this thread is pointless now. lol. its already gone negative and lets face it, no matter what anyone says, you will all have your own opinion and disagree with what another will say LOL

[itsnoteasy]

You can't say every ultimate made would fit in your living room, how many shafts make the ultimate grade? One in ten ,one in twenty? That's a hell of a load of living rooms you need now.

[Leo]

You can't say every ultimate made would fit in your living room, how many shafts make the ultimate grade? One in ten ,one in twenty? That's a hell of a load of living rooms you need now.

Funny how these cheaper cuemakers can bung out ultimate looking shafts by the dozen

[itsnoteasy]

Funny how these cheaper cuemakers can bung out ultimate looking shafts by the dozen

Depends what you call an ultimate shaft aswell, some like a lot of arrows , me , I dont like too many, and others like hardly any, if you can request exactly how you want your shaft to look and it has to be an ultimate player, I doubt even one in twenty make the grade(does ultimate mean looks or how it plays or both?)

[vmax4steve]

Considering the fact that Parris himself says he has a yield of 2.5% of the Ash he looks at, where do you suppose he keeps all this old wood. The company must make 100s-1000s of cues a year that's a hell of a lot Of wood To have stored. How would John have predicted such high demand for his cues to know that he needs to stockpile and air dry vast amounts of it ?

To be fair there probably are differences between air dried and kiln dried wood, I'd imagine it mainly relates to stability. Hopefully somebody who actually knows the difference will tell us.

Parris buys 2.5% of the timber he looks at, he doesn't use only 2.5% of the timber he buys.

There is no difference between kiln or air dried timber, only the amount of time it takes. Timber dried in a kiln too fast will lose it's elasticity and strength and bend and split and be worth only matchwwod, properly kiln dried and it's just as good as old air dried timber and there's not a player on this earth who could tell if the ash for a shaft of a cue was either air or kiln dried before it was made.