Bog wood v. Air dried ash

[golferson123]

(no one on here has an old air dried cue but me) thing is you have no way of knowing where that timber came from unless you made it yourself,and that I very much doubt by the obvious lack of knowledge. I have put more old cues over my knee for misbehaving than you have probably seen and really mb its time you understood how ridiculous your posts are becoming, you are now asking one of the best cue makers of modern times to take your advice!

[Master Blaster]

Bit of a ridiculous statement mate !!!!
How the feck do you know that ??? there are dozens of cue collectors on here with more cues than you have ever seen

Let them come forth and tell us about their air-dried ash cues then. You go first JVC. Hang on, you don't know which is which do you?

I know my cues are air-dried because that's how they were made by the companies concerned. It's called research!

Kiln wood is crap wood. There's a big biz in reclaimed wood precisely because modern timber is rubbish. Fact.

I'm building a dozen 18th C doors from scratch using a plane, chisel and mallet, so don't tell me that you know about wood because you've done jack when it comes to working with it unless you'd like to explain those skills? Yes, I'm using bespoke oak, rested for about 50yrs which isn't that old considering the original doors have lasted 300 years; let's see how long your cheap timber framed houses on estates last! The great thing about old oak and all old timber is the ability to fit to the mm because it's workable. It's like butter with a sharp blade, beautiful material. Clunk wood splinters and falls apart and you look at the fibre and it reminds you of bamboo. Nothing will stay on line in clunkwood, the ability of the wood to destress and deform once opened is legend. The structure of the wood is destroyed in the oven and that's been proven by scientists. That's why cue makers are chucking filler in the cracks, because the timber around growth circles cannot be sanded down without tons of careful effort, ask J6, one of the few to do it. All the other cue makers, even TW, resort to filler because the wood is rubbish to work with. How many cue makers sand down and use no filler, ask yourselves why?

Golf; who did you make cues for then?

If Powerglide say they made cues from air-dried sitting in stacks for 24 years, so they did. They know more about making cues than all the so called collectors on here and I'm personally in touch with those at the company who know. Besides, we have the brochures to prove it and the craftsmen of those days are far more trustable than the Bangkok sell-outs. Unfortunately, most of their cues are now made from clunk in China, but hey, only a fool would buy clunkwood anyway so let the suckers get the wad out! Same goes for Thai clunk. LOL

Take a trip to Aston Hall and have a look at the stunning Jacobean woodwork in there and then compare the photos to timber framed houses/buildings and understand why, without even thinking too hard, why air-dried is choice. Or go to a museum and have a look at the finest French and Chinese furniture made by artisans with a hundred times the skill of a mere cue maker. No, they didn't have kilns! And yes, the finest furniture makers still use air-dried timber.

[jrc750]

1)... Kiln wood is crap wood...
2) ...so don't tell me that you know about wood because you've done jack when it comes to working with it unless you'd like to explain those skills?
3)..but hey, only a fool would buy clunkwood anyway so let the suckers get the wad out!

1) Well that's quite funny you saying that, because on another thread where you named your best playing cues, all but one i would say are made from kiln dried wood ha ha ha
2) where did i say i knew about wood ??
3) seems your'e the biggest fool going then ohh and are you saying virtually every professional player is a fool then ?? as that is what you are saying

[golferson123]

I made cues for anyone that wanted them,you doubt my lineage that's fair enough but I aint laying my past on the line to shut you up because it wont.i too have trawled through lumber yards looking for decent wood have you?. I've sourced it, cut it, planed it,have you ,I've sourced it ,cut it, turned it,have you?
you know jack about timber for cues and all this talk about air dried vs kiln dried proves it, its species that make the difference at least for me, but others might disagree but I don't count you as a valid counter opinion

[golferson123]

just for you mbhttps://youtu.be/P-JVnlB7Onk

[Byrom]

I don't know what the hell is happening - I loves cues like the next man but this air dried thing getting a bit dull/obsessive now can we not just get back to talking about beer sex boxing football and ----snooker

[Leo]

I don't know what the hell is happening - I loves cues like the next man but this air dried thing getting a bit dull/obsessive now can we not just get back to talking about beer sex boxing football and ----snooker

Yep it's got a tad repetitive now and frankly boring.

[trevs1]

Me too, he he! but if Trev can post a few paragraphs on here, I'm sure he has time, if willing (!) to post a wee bit about what he thinks of air-dried instead of continually posting I'm not getting into it over many months. Not having a go at Trev, I like his posts and that's why I asked him. It would be interesting to hear his 'proper' thoughts on this. And of other cue makers on here as well of course!

Instead of ungentlemanly types making insults, maybe we could have an intelligent discussion on this topic no?

All joking aside, this really isn't a topic worthy of serious debate.

The problem we have here is simply that cues are so variable, that whether they're made from this timber or that, how it's dried or what part of the world it comes from, that the final feel will be a result of the specs as much as (and in some ways virtually exclusively to in fact) anything else. Cues are NOT like antique restoration, or numerous other areas whereby the provenance of the timber matters to some degree and the people who are using it, it just isn't, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

Are there differences between air and kiln dried timber.?...Well yes there are.

Are those differences conducive to better performing cues.?....No they're not.

That pretty much sums this argument up for cues. There's not a lot else to get into, apart from of course for anyone being a traditionalist and wanting things to be done in a way that conjures up images of a craftsman going about things in a fashion that was employed a century ago. That does not always equal better, and in the case of cues, it's not tricky to argue that it would be worse.

There's all sorts that can be mentioned here, but it adds up to little more than hot air, because it just doesn't matter, really, it doesn't. If you or anyone else "truly" believes that it does, then that's ok.

Finally, the Aurora stuff that's written on their website is nothing more than the kind of marketing guff that is spouted by numerous cue makers. It amounts to little more than efforts to create an image of knowledge and care which frankly, perhaps doesn't really exist to anywhere near the level that they'd love you to believe.

Again, people can believe what they like, it's ok.

[JimB]

Couldn't agree more Trevor but this craziness not only happens in the cue world but the guitar world too mate ... it's scary the amount of people who contact me about the 'magical musical' qualities of this or that wood for guitars that they want me to use or sell to me, I just laugh and try to let them down gently.

Here's one that happened a lot of years ago that still makes me laugh and cringe at the same time ...

A guitarist from the good old U.S. of A visited our workshops many years ago to have a look around and see how we do things, all straight forward enough and normal, right up until he told me that his own guitar, that he had custom built, sounded better because when the luthier was making it he was so 'moved' by how wonderful the guitar was going to be cried a little and a few tears rolled down his cheek and fell onto the soundboard ... he just rubbed them on into the wood ........... ? ........... !

That my friends is a true story.


Edit: I would just like to remind everyone that I have some Ash here that although not tapered yet, I have rubbed some Irish tears into the wood so, you never know ... guaranteed 147 on the 1st frame ... you betcha buddy, get your wallet out!

[trevs1]

Ha, good story that Jim.

Yes, there are nutters out there who will buy into anything told to them by the makers of specialist gear, be that cues, guitars, hifi or whatever. In the world of such specialist equipment, Snake-oil is all too apparent when there's cash to be made by peddlers of products making bold claims that cannot be fully (or even partly) backed up. Where there is room for subjectivity, and especially where there seems to be a lack of critical thinking by the buying public, there will be the marketeers who look to exploit and cash in.

I guess some would call it business sense, but it's not for me.

[Byrom]

Now now be nice - Some of those - nutters - keep you and your ilk - cue makers - in the manner you are accustomed Mr White. Customer is always right even when wrong?

Wood is sourced from all over the world but if cue makers all just used North American ash then the cue world would be rather a dull place - it is not just sourced from there though - it is sourced from various places - and various climates and various parts of the world as you know - and older reclaimed ash is sought after - So I get his point about wanting to discuss it even though it is boring me and I think there are better things to talk about.

If master b likes his air dried ash because he thinks it less brittle or more dense or plays better or whatever then that is his thing - and it sounds like it is so let him get it out of his system - then we can all get back talking about sex football boxing and snooker or something because it seems like it is on every other thread at the moment.

Why does John Parris say he uses old air dried ash if he does say that? and if he does and this other company power glide did then why?

Can someone PLEASE just simply explain if it is just nonsense or beneficial or a marketing ploy to Master Blaster then the forum can get back to normal and then maybe the poor fella can sleep at night.

[JimB]

I'm loathed to get into a 'this is better than that' debate so I'll just mention this and leave it alone.

It's all too easy to think all kiln dried woods are equal but the simple facts are, some are more equal than others (thank you Mr Orwell).

When someone says 'kiln' the first impression or thought is usually, oh yes, a room with a dehumidifier stuck in the corner and maybe a fan too if you're lucky and whilst that's true for many kiln's some are more sophisticated, some have a vapour spray system installed to lightly coat the surface of the wood with water while it 'dries', moisture probes are inserted into the planks to monitor the drying from the inside of the plank out, this ensures the wood is dried evenly and minimises shrinkage on the outer surface that would dry first under normal circumstances.

Is it possible to kiln-dry wood incorrectly? ... yes.
Is it possible to air-dry wood incorrectly? ... yes.
I've seen it happen.

Think about it ... unless you go and cut your own tree down, strip it, slice and dice it etc you will not know exactly how well it was 'dried' regardless of whether it was air or kiln dried, in fact pretty much all felled timber is air-dried at the start and kiln dried later if requested / needed.
Also, a lot of the time kiln's are used on a very low setting to just stabilise wood after transport ... 4 weeks on the high seas travelling from some tropical climate to the dry northern climate can be traumatic.

Kiln's are not bad things to be feared and as long as the person in charge of the wood to be dried knows what they're doing then there's nothing to worry about.

Hold on, I just looked at the clock and it's way after midnight ... tha, tha, that's all folks!
Sweet dreams.

[Byrom]

wow very knowledgeable reply there - right that's put me to sleep too - but I hope herein lies the cure for MB and the discussion can end - fat chance - but the last time I am mentioning it - don't say I never tried my best to put this to bed too - night all x

[jonny66]

Since joining this forum I've learned much more about wood than I ever cared to, and probably more than I will ever need to.

[Ramon]

Since joining this forum I've learned much more about wood than I ever cared to, and probably more than I will ever need to.

This is a good one !! Lol !!