Bog wood v. Air dried ash

[Byrom]

Yes well maybe this will stop the debate from Master B about all this air dried ash stuff - the answers are now here to see in front of him in Jim Black and Trevor White

[vmax4steve]

I started off my woodworking career in a sawmill for a local builders merchants, mostly softwood but sometimes hardwood like sapele and mahogany/utile for door and window frames.
We supplied all the post and rail fencing for devon county council, softwood of course, green and celcured against rotting. The council decided that all the timber had to be kiln dried to allow more celcure to get into the timber so it would last a lot longer, this of course is true, so the firm had to either source kiln dried softwwod post and rail and celcure them or install a kiln.
They decided to install a kiln.

The kiln took about two weeks to install, it was rather large, about twenty fives metres long, three metres high and two metres wide so it could take hundreds of posts and rails at a time, and I was charged with running it.

So the wood was cut and put on the buggy's and railed into the kiln, doors shut and everything set going as according to the manual, a certain setting that would dry the wood to the desired moisture content in about two weeks, checking it twice a day with a moisture metre.

The boss was the type who wanted everything done yesterday and he increased the temperature well above what was stated in the manual. Well the next day I went into the kiln to check with my moisture metre and saw that practically all the timber had bowed out of shape. We salvaged what we could, cut more timber and this time did it by the book and two weeks later took it out and it was fine. A few cracks and splits as to be expected with softwood, and as we used all different kinds of species like douglas fir, larch, pine etc this was why the process took so long as each species has varying moisture content.

The only difference I could notice between the green wood and the kiln dried was its weight, certainly made stacking the posts for the celcure plant easier, and of course the wood ingested more of the preservative. However as the posts and rails were left outside once treated the top layer of each pack bowed and split a little under the sun as they dried out after treatment.

From this experience I can readily assume that timber dried properly in a kiln is absolutely fine and probably better in regards to exact moisture content than anything left to air dry in a non temperature controlled environment.
Once the cue is made the moisture content of the wood is sealed in by way of an oiled/waxed or varnish finish, but this is never a once only treatment. I give my cue a wax treatment once a year and it has stayed perfectly straight for over thirty years; you can oil yours if you wish using specialist cue oils, danish oil or linseed oil, the choice is yours.

In regards to MB's bog maple, (sounds like a marketing spiel answer to swamp ash) once this has been retreived from the bog it surely has to be dried and I'm sure Aurora won't wait twenty five years (unless they already have of course ) before they start making cues with it.
Will they be using petrified (fossilised wood turned to stone over millions of years) hardwood for the butts of these cues ? I've seen some beautiful petrified hardwood, sure would be a pain to work, but no need to use weights if you have a stone butt.

Something to look into Trev

[trevs1]

Now now be nice - Some of those - nutters - keep you and your ilk - cue makers - in the manner you are accustomed Mr White. Customer is always right even when wrong?

Wood is sourced from all over the world but if cue makers all just used North American ash then the cue world would be rather a dull place - it is not just sourced from there though - it is sourced from various places - and various climates and various parts of the world as you know - and older reclaimed ash is sought after - So I get his point about wanting to discuss it even though it is boring me and I think there are better things to talk about.

If master b likes his air dried ash because he thinks it less brittle or more dense or plays better or whatever then that is his thing - and it sounds like it is so let him get it out of his system - then we can all get back talking about sex football boxing and snooker or something because it seems like it is on every other thread at the moment.

Why does John Parris say he uses old air dried ash if he does say that? and if he does and this other company power glide did then why?

Can someone PLEASE just simply explain if it is just nonsense or beneficial or a marketing ploy to Master Blaster then the forum can get back to normal and then maybe the poor fella can sleep at night.

Byrom,

Firstly, me and my "ilk" (cue makers) have all sorts of differing backgrounds and lifestyles, most of which you perhaps have not a clue about, so that's an utterly pointless comment. We are not any different to anyone else that is employed / self employed. It's just an unusual way of earning a living, and that's it. On the "nutters" thing, I was not specifically referring to cue buyers either, well, not just them. When people who are insanely into hifi, go and place stands along their speaker cables to keep them off the floor, because they believe that it improves the sound, then yes, I'd say that makes them slightly bonkers. When snooker / pool players ask for a cue to be made with a specific ferrule size of 9.6mm, and then a month later ask to change it to 9.63mm, then yes, that also makes them a little crazy, becasue the difference is so small, that they would not truthfully notice it at all in a finished cue. Much of what can be asked for, questioned and eventually decided on is in the mind of an individual as much as it is ever likely to be factually beneficial or even real. The term I used was a broad one to cover all sorts of scenarios and is not hard to back up with facts.

Secondly, no, the customer is not always right, and especially not so when they are wrong. I have no problem in telling anyone that their ideas are bad ones if it relates to a cue to be made, and will offer reasons behind why I say what I say. I don't just go along with anything, nod my head and smile politely, simply to fill my pockets with a little bit more money. That has never been, is not and will never be the way I do things.

As I wrote earlier, there's not really a lot of merit in this discussion at all when we relate timber to cues. The reason behind that comment (to make it clear and restate it) is because cues are variable in their specifications, and, are made from timber which can vary from lighter to heavier, stiffer to springier, longer, shorter, thicker, thinner, maple, ash whatever. This will be true NO MATTER HOW THE TIMBER IS DRIED". To make any such claim that air drying timber alone produces any kind of difference in the finished product, amongst the myriad of variability of cues is plain moronic. It displays an attitude towards the whole subject which is lacking in basic understanding and critical thinking, and therefore, has no merit in warranting any kind of discussion. That is why I wrote what I did and why I will not get into the topic.

Look, a simple question can be typed into a computer and researched by anyone, I'd imagine. Take a look at moisture contents of timber, and see how dry it's possible to realistically get timber to by air drying alone, and then compare that to how dry kilning it can achieve. Then search again on what happens to timbers from typical air dry levels of 15% - 18% to kiln dried levels of 6% - 10%. I can tell you, it's not good. Now, when you consider that snooker tables tend to be indoors, (the ones I've seen anyway) in centrally heated buildings, some also with underslate heating..... think of all that lovely heat driving off the excess moisture in your air dried shaft when you leave your cue on the table for lunchtime. It's not ideal is it.

I will happily tell you, John Parris, for a nailed on certainty, will know all about this and would not be wanting to go anywhere near such trouble. All these claims of him using air dried timber is utter tripe and needs to be treated as such.

Right, I'm done now.

[Leo]

Im guessing here but I would bet a few quid that those people asking to change a 9.6mm tip to a 9.63mm tip ain't got clue.

[fredkite]

I also can't see Airin waiting 25 years for this bog wood, he might have died (again) in that time.

[tofushop193]

hahahaha Fred.

[golferson123]

Byrom,

Firstly, me and my "ilk" (cue makers) have all sorts of differing backgrounds and lifestyles, most of which you perhaps have not a clue about, so that's an utterly pointless comment. We are not any different to anyone else that is employed / self employed. It's just an unusual way of earning a living, and that's it. On the "nutters" thing, I was not specifically referring to cue buyers either, well, not just them. When people who are insanely into hifi, go and place stands along their speaker cables to keep them off the floor, because they believe that it improves the sound, then yes, I'd say that makes them slightly bonkers. When snooker / pool players ask for a cue to be made with a specific ferrule size of 9.6mm, and then a month later ask to change it to 9.63mm, then yes, that also makes them a little crazy, becasue the difference is so small, that they would not truthfully notice it at all in a finished cue. Much of what can be asked for, questioned and eventually decided on is in the mind of an individual as much as it is ever likely to be factually beneficial or even real. The term I used was a broad one to cover all sorts of scenarios and is not hard to back up with facts.

Secondly, no, the customer is not always right, and especially not so when they are wrong. I have no problem in telling anyone that their ideas are bad ones if it relates to a cue to be made, and will offer reasons behind why I say what I say. I don't just go along with anything, nod my head and smile politely, simply to fill my pockets with a little bit more money. That has never been, is not and will never be the way I do things.

As I wrote earlier, there's not really a lot of merit in this discussion at all when we relate timber to cues. The reason behind that comment (to make it clear and restate it) is because cues are variable in their specifications, and, are made from timber which can vary from lighter to heavier, stiffer to springier, longer, shorter, thicker, thinner, maple, ash whatever. This will be true NO MATTER HOW THE TIMBER IS DRIED". To make any such claim that air drying timber alone produces any kind of difference in the finished product, amongst the myriad of variability of cues is plain moronic. It displays an attitude towards the whole subject which is lacking in basic understanding and critical thinking, and therefore, has no merit in warranting any kind of discussion. That is why I wrote what I did and why I will not get into the topic.

Look, a simple question can be typed into a computer and researched by anyone, I'd imagine. Take a look at moisture contents of timber, and see how dry it's possible to realistically get timber to by air drying alone, and then compare that to how dry kilning it can achieve. Then search again on what happens to timbers from typical air dry levels of 15% - 18% to kiln dried levels of 6% - 10%. I can tell you, it's not good. Now, when you consider that snooker tables tend to be indoors, (the ones I've seen anyway) in centrally heated buildings, some also with underslate heating..... think of all that lovely heat driving off the excess moisture in your air dried shaft when you leave your cue on the table for lunchtime. It's not ideal is it.

I will happily tell you, John Parris, for a nailed on certainty, will know all about this and would not be wanting to go anywhere near such trouble. All these claims of him using air dried timber is utter tripe and needs to be treated as such.

Right, I'm done now.

its hard not to reply to these threads trev isn't it, he's a mischievous bugger and count yourself hooked

[trevs1]

its hard not to reply to these threads trev isn't it, he's a mischievous bugger and count yourself hooked

No, not really, I find it quite easy to ignore. The fact is though i was awake at 6.30 this morning, and so after reading about stuff in the US, and checking on some other crap I had to look at, I looked in here and see the post from Byrom. It was that which prompted me to respond.

I'm done with it now, but I do have one more thing to say which is.......

Shameless plug coming......

Check out the cue listed on Ebay to raise funds for charity, here...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trevor-Whi...?#ht_356wt_958

[Master Blaster]

Powerglide stopped using air-dried in the late 80s because they ran out due to the boom in snooker. Cues from then on were made from selected slow kiln dried and then matured in stacks. So if you want one, you have to hunt. Their cues now are just the same shape (butt and shaft wise) as all the rest; straight poles with narrower shafts. The wide butt, fat shaft and taper has pretty much gone in favour of linear shafts with little taper leading to stiffness and clunk. These cues are rank. This shape is very popular amongst the Thai cue makers, another reason to swerve Thai cues. As Aurora say, a really playable cue can be quite broad down the shaft but still have a nice taper. This can actually lead to say a 10mm tipped cue being whippier than a 9mm cue, something Acuerate don't understand! Personally, I'd rather play with any decent Cue Craft cue because at least they understand taper (e.g. their Sherwood cue), something the Thais have missed and a lot of British cue makers have missed as well, some who charge a fortune. This is why folk like JVC and Ronnie like the Burwat shape, very different from todays straight pole clunk.

As for you Trev, the quality of air dried timber has nothing at all to do with moisture content. This is a misnomer that you propagate from a basic lack of understanding of what happens to the structure of wood when it is baked at 60 degrees or so. Let me tell you from the research; it CHANGES! It becomes more brittle and less reactive, loses strength, more stringy and fibrous; this is scientific fact and nothing you say will mislead that truth.

This is why bespoke furniture makes use air-dried to produce the best furniture, things cue makers struggle to understand. Kiln dried may be ok for making pencil boxes in school woodworking classes but not for the best of the best craftmanship.

[Master Blaster]

Now now be nice - Some of those - nutters - keep you and your ilk - cue makers - in the manner you are accustomed Mr White. Customer is always right even when wrong?

Wood is sourced from all over the world but if cue makers all just used North American ash then the cue world would be rather a dull place - it is not just sourced from there though - it is sourced from various places - and various climates and various parts of the world as you know - and older reclaimed ash is sought after - So I get his point about wanting to discuss it even though it is boring me and I think there are better things to talk about.

If master b likes his air dried ash because he thinks it less brittle or more dense or plays better or whatever then that is his thing - and it sounds like it is so let him get it out of his system - then we can all get back talking about sex football boxing and snooker or something because it seems like it is on every other thread at the moment.

Why does John Parris say he uses old air dried ash if he does say that? and if he does and this other company power glide did then why?

Can someone PLEASE just simply explain if it is just nonsense or beneficial or a marketing ploy to Master Blaster then the forum can get back to normal and then maybe the poor fella can sleep at night.

No, Parris uses angel ash. This will be worthy of an entire thread of its own at some point soon.

[golferson123]

Powerglide stopped using air-dried in the late 80s because they ran out due to the boom in snooker. Cues from then on were made from selected slow kiln dried and then matured in stacks. So if you want one, you have to hunt. Their cues now are just the same shape (butt and shaft wise) as all the rest; straight poles with narrower shafts. The wide butt, fat shaft and taper has pretty much gone in favour of linear shafts with little taper leading to stiffness and clunk. These cues are rank. This shape is very popular amongst the Thai cue makers, another reason to swerve Thai cues. As Aurora say, a really playable cue can be quite broad down the shaft but still have a nice taper. This can actually lead to say a 10mm tipped cue being whippier than a 9mm cue, something Acuerate don't understand! Personally, I'd rather play with any decent Cue Craft cue because at least they understand taper (e.g. their Sherwood cue), something the Thais have missed and a lot of British cue makers have missed as well, some who charge a fortune. This is why folk like JVC and Ronnie like the Burwat shape, very different from todays straight pole clunk.

As for you Trev, the quality of air dried timber has nothing at all to do with moisture content. This is a misnomer that you propagate from a basic lack of understanding of what happens to the structure of wood when it is baked at 60 degrees or so. Let me tell you from the research; it CHANGES! It becomes more brittle and less reactive, loses strength, more stringy and fibrous; this is scientific fact and nothing you say will mislead that truth.

This is why bespoke furniture makes use air-dried to produce the best furniture, things cue makers struggle to understand. Kiln dried may be ok for making pencil boxes in school woodworking classes but not for the best of the best craftmanship.

its uncanny how you have elevated yourself to an expert on cue making when you have never even made one! brass of the highest nature

[Byrom]

No, Parris uses angel ash. This will be worthy of an entire thread of its own at some point soon.

Cant wait for that thread. in the meantime -

[svendh]

jeez, if you would spend the time discussing how it's best to dry wood at the practise table i bet you could be pro players

[Master Blaster]

its uncanny how you have elevated yourself to an expert on cue making when you have never even made one! brass of the highest nature

I've repaired plenty and tipped hundreds so I know what I'm talking about. You may yet see a new cue made of timeless air-dried angel ash my friend, if me and a certain cue maker get together soon...

[Leo]

I've repaired plenty and tipped hundreds so I know what I'm talking about. You may yet see a new cue made of timeless air-dried angel ash my friend, if me and a certain cue maker get together soon...

Not 100% sure if Trevor white is looking for new ideas and if so I'm pretty sure you'll be the first person he'll contact.