Bog wood v. Air dried ash

[Master Blaster]

Not 100% sure if Trevor white is looking for new ideas and if so I'm pretty sure you'll be the first person he'll contact.

Maybe the company should be called Ye Olde Air-dried Ash Cue Company?

Or simply, Timeless Cues?

[Leo]

Maybe the company should be called Ye Olde Air-dried Ash Cue Company?

Or simply, Timeless Cues?

Ye olde air dried is more catchy

[Master Blaster]

Ye olde air dried is more catchy

Ye Olde Air-dried Cues

'Hand planed and hand made in England, aged by Angels'

[trevs1]

Powerglide stopped using air-dried in the late 80s because they ran out due to the boom in snooker. Cues from then on were made from selected slow kiln dried and then matured in stacks. So if you want one, you have to hunt. Their cues now are just the same shape (butt and shaft wise) as all the rest; straight poles with narrower shafts. The wide butt, fat shaft and taper has pretty much gone in favour of linear shafts with little taper leading to stiffness and clunk. These cues are rank. This shape is very popular amongst the Thai cue makers, another reason to swerve Thai cues. As Aurora say, a really playable cue can be quite broad down the shaft but still have a nice taper. This can actually lead to say a 10mm tipped cue being whippier than a 9mm cue, something Acuerate don't understand! Personally, I'd rather play with any decent Cue Craft cue because at least they understand taper (e.g. their Sherwood cue), something the Thais have missed and a lot of British cue makers have missed as well, some who charge a fortune. This is why folk like JVC and Ronnie like the Burwat shape, very different from todays straight pole clunk.

As for you Trev, the quality of air dried timber has nothing at all to do with moisture content. This is a misnomer that you propagate from a basic lack of understanding of what happens to the structure of wood when it is baked at 60 degrees or so. Let me tell you from the research; it CHANGES! It becomes more brittle and less reactive, loses strength, more stringy and fibrous; this is scientific fact and nothing you say will mislead that truth.

This is why bespoke furniture makes use air-dried to produce the best furniture, things cue makers struggle to understand. Kiln dried may be ok for making pencil boxes in school woodworking classes but not for the best of the best craftmanship.

It's all good, I get it now.

I'm rather disappointed in myself that I took as long as I did to twig it, but as I don't read the stuff written on here that much (and especially not the other threads you maybe post on) I wasn't sure of how serious you may have been.

Still, I get it now.

While it can be entertaining, it doesn't do a lot for a forum to tolerate trolling posters, but, TSF is oblivious clearly.

[trevs1]

Some of it is kind of entertaining though. Haha.

[golferson123]

Some of it is kind of entertaining though. Haha.

In a homer simpson kind of way

[DandyA]

I've repaired plenty and tipped hundreds so I know what I'm talking about. You may yet see a new cue made of timeless air-dried angel ash my friend, if me and a certain cue maker get together soon...

Not 100% sure if Trevor white is looking for new ideas and if so I'm pretty sure you'll be the first person he'll contact.

I think you're way off there Leo ... I can almost hear the sound of little air-dried angels emanating from J6 and MB now

[Master Blaster]

Ok, so this is what Wikipaedia say about air-dried:

Air drying

Air drying is the drying of timber by exposing it to the air. The technique of air drying consists mainly of making a stack of sawn timber (with the layers of boards separated by stickers) on raised foundations, in a clean, cool, dry and shady place. Rate of drying largely depends on climatic conditions, and on the air movement (exposure to the wind). For successful air drying, a continuous and uniform flow of air throughout the pile of the timber needs to be arranged (Desch and Dinwoodie, 1996). The rate of loss of moisture can be controlled by coating the planks with any substance that is relatively impermeable to moisture; ordinary mineral oil is usually quite effective. Coating the ends of logs with oil or thick paint improves their quality upon drying. Wrapping planks or logs in materials which will allow some movement of moisture, generally works very well provided the wood is first treated against fungal infection by coating in petrol/gasoline or oil. Mineral oil will generally not soak in more than 1–2 mm below the surface and is easily removed by planing when the timber is suitably dry. Benefits- It can be less expensive to use this drying method (there are still costs associated with storing the wood, and with the slower process of getting the wood to market), and air drying often produces a higher quality, more easily workable wood than with kiln drying. Drawbacks- Depending on the climate, it takes several months to a number of years to air-dry the wood.

Note for Trevs1: '...air drying often produces a higher quality, more easily workable wood than with kiln drying.' That means it's less stringy, doesn't chip as easily, doesn't warp due to internal stresses (the outer being more dryer than the inner as per kiln timber) and it planes easier. All the things I've been saying for months and have now discovered in Wiki text. And it does take time and respect for timber, around 12-24 years is ideal, as Powerglide used to.

Note for the note: 'higher quality'.

[trevs1]

You teach me so much, thank you.

[trevs1]

Doh, I feel like such a fool.

Why didn't I think of using Wikipedia for all my timber information.

[strobbekoen]

Air drying and kiln drying is not like black and white, there are various methods or a combination of both depending on the type of wood and it's final application. There's nothing you can't do with a good kiln that air drying can do, it just depends on how the parameters in the kiln are controlled. Not all woods are "baked" in a kiln at crazy temperatures, and for sure not woods for applications such as cues, musical instruments etc. Sure, you can perfectly air dry wood, but then you'd better try to control the environmental parameters as much as possible, which is hard to achieve, and as a result air drying does carry risks as well which can lead to a higher defect volume. Some woods don't take air drying well because for example the wood stains easily which can't be planed out (maple being an example). Air drying usually leads to an equilibrium after one to two years, after which you have to bring the wood into the environment where it will be in it's final application, and leave it there for another number of weeks before working it (you need to do this with kiln dried too of course). I have no idea what the benefit would be leaving it for another 12-24 years. When making the final product, wood has to be finished, depending on where the product will be used - without that, any wood no matter how it's dried will change to the equilibrium of it's environment rather rapidly.

[Master Blaster]

Air drying and kiln drying is not like black and white, there are various methods or a combination of both depending on the type of wood and it's final application. There's nothing you can't do with a good kiln that air drying can do, it just depends on how the parameters in the kiln are controlled. Not all woods are "baked" in a kiln at crazy temperatures, and for sure not woods for applications such as cues, musical instruments etc. Sure, you can perfectly air dry wood, but then you'd better try to control the environmental parameters as much as possible, which is hard to achieve, and as a result air drying does carry risks as well which can lead to a higher defect volume. Some woods don't take air drying well because for example the wood stains easily which can't be planed out (maple being an example). Air drying usually leads to an equilibrium after one to two years, after which you have to bring the wood into the environment where it will be in it's final application, and leave it there for another number of weeks before working it (you need to do this with kiln dried too of course). I have no idea what the benefit would be leaving it for another 12-24 years. When making the final product, wood has to be finished, depending on where the product will be used - without that, any wood no matter how it's dried will change to the equilibrium of it's environment rather rapidly.

I agree with much of what you say; there's hot air or steam kiln drying, low temp, mid temp, high temp. But at the end of the day, kilns exist to speed things up. And most cue makers won't have a clue how the wood was dried. Wood matures in a better way with better qualities in a covered air stack. That's a fact. So kilns can be used to good effect, especially for commercial lumber but why use them for bespoke cues costing 500+ quid when a superior material exists?

The benefit of leaving the wood 12-24 yrs is to allow it to really settle and completely destress. In theory it is kiln dried timber that should sit for a really long time because it is highly stressed (the outer is dryer than the inner) and sometimes case hardened (this leads to warping down the line). But the whole quick-turnaround point of kiln timber for customers who have to rush to profit means that it doesn't sit long at all. By allowing air-dried to settle for a long time (and 1-2yrs is often required even for small sawn pieces) the wood is much less likely to split or warp later.

I'll say this again, the problem with kiln timber is not moisture content, all wood will adjust to the moisture content of its surroundings no matter how it is dried, i.e. room moisture where the cue is kept eventually. It is the structural integrity of kiln that is the issue. Kilns change fibres. The extent of how much they change the fibre is a factor of hot or steamed, low, mid or high temp. But they do change the wood detrimentally, so it simply has to be air dried for me. Not for pub bats or BCE bats no, but for anything high end, it has to be the best material by definition.

[strobbekoen]

A covered air stack doesn't produce better qualities per se, not a fact. Again, it depends on the conditions which you can not control and the type of wood being dried. Air drying can definitely be detrimental to the structure of the wood as well. Wet warm weather can lead to staining, hot dry weather can lead to checking, temperature changes in the winter to mold growth and so on. My point was, if done well, either method works fine. With air drying exposing you to the elements, you can do things to control it as much as possible, stacking it right, covering it, avoiding too much or too little airflow, you can do all of that in a controlled environment as well.

[Master Blaster]

A covered air stack doesn't produce better qualities per se, not a fact. Again, it depends on the conditions which you can not control and the type of wood being dried. Air drying can definitely be detrimental to the structure of the wood as well. Wet warm weather can lead to staining, hot dry weather can lead to checking, temperature changes in the winter to mold growth and so on. My point was, if done well, either method works fine. With air drying exposing you to the elements, you can do things to control it as much as possible, stacking it right, covering it, avoiding too much or too little airflow, you can do all of that in a controlled environment as well.

Well, there is also fan dried at air temp which works well and faster. If you dry a piece of timber in ideal kiln conditions (no steam IMO) and one in ideal air conditions, the latter is always better. But that's how I feel about the timber and working with it and it's characteristics. I simply believe that the structure of the wood changes in a kiln and it's not as good to play with. Heating things changes them, even metals, so heating wood is gonna change it big time. This is a proven. I believe those changes aren't good. Air drying also changes the wood, I believe those changes beneficial.

[trevs1]

Oh dear, I despair really I do.