Maguire changed his cue.

[frazz]

I love all the accusations flying around on this forum when not one of you have ever been to raymond workshop! He came off here cause it was a poisonous forum, people chopping others cues to find out if Thai or not only to be proven wrong. Look at the amount of pros using raymond cues or had work done by him, I can only think of 1 scottish pro that hasn't ever used him and that's ross muir, all others trust him and are happy with the quality of his work either in making them a cue or in repairing/altering their existing cue.

[bigandyg]

I love all the accusations flying around on this forum when not one of you have ever been to raymond workshop! He came off here cause it was a poisonous forum, people chopping others cues to find out if Thai or not only to be proven wrong. Look at the amount of pros using raymond cues or had work done by him, I can only think of 1 scottish pro that hasn't ever used him and that's ross muir, all others trust him and are happy with the quality of his work either in making them a cue or in repairing/altering their existing cue.

Well said Frazz, some sense at last.

[piper74]

I love all the accusations flying around on this forum when not one of you have ever been to raymond workshop! He came off here cause it was a poisonous forum, people chopping others cues to find out if Thai or not only to be proven wrong. Look at the amount of pros using raymond cues or had work done by him, I can only think of 1 scottish pro that hasn't ever used him and that's ross muir, all others trust him and are happy with the quality of his work either in making them a cue or in repairing/altering their existing cue.

I am using an Exquisite numbered black plate. Fantastic cue. If it is good enough for the Scottish pros, it is definitely good enough for an amateur like me.

Are you saying that Raymond has NEVER engaged Thai makers for any for his cues? Just curious on what the answer will be.

[frazz]

As I said nobody here has been to raymond workshop, I have, I personally helped him with his first lathe, went with him when he was buying it and helped lift it down his stairs out the back and along into his workshop, he now owns 3 lathes all different sizes for different purposes, I have seen his wood stocks, I have been to Derby with him to buy multiple woods, ebony, rosewood, tulip wood, olive wood, snake wood, thuya burr, purple heart rosewood, I have seen his ash shafts before anything is added to them. I don't get the obsession here, it seems all the "old" cue makers don't like new kids on the block and because a few have gone down the Thai route everyone gets branded with the same stick. No wonder raymo does most of his business with China!

[eaoin11]

As I said nobody here has been to raymond workshop, I have, I personally helped him with his first lathe, went with him when he was buying it and helped lift it down his stairs out the back and along into his workshop, he now owns 3 lathes all different sizes for different purposes, I have seen his wood stocks, I have been to Derby with him to buy multiple woods, ebony, rosewood, tulip wood, olive wood, snake wood, thuya burr, purple heart rosewood, I have seen his ash shafts before anything is added to them. I don't get the obsession here, it seems all the "old" cue makers don't like new kids on the block and because a few have gone down the Thai route everyone gets branded with the same stick. No wonder raymo does most of his business with China!

Everyone on TSF (at the time) saw his workshop being built. It was an obvious promotion but there's nothing wrong with that. I have no idea whatsoever about the quality of his cues but anyone can see that the better business model would include importing cues rather than making every single one of them from scratch, particularly if the Thai and Chinese suppliers are better able to source quality shafts. One or two makers have come out and said outright that they don't import cues, while others have said explicitly that they do import some of their cues. I personally have high regard for the people in both categories.

[Wayne G]

Everyone on TSF (at the time) saw his workshop being built. It was an obvious promotion but there's nothing wrong with that. I have no idea whatsoever about the quality of his cues but anyone can see that the better business model would include importing cues rather than making every single one of them from scratch, particularly if the Thai and Chinese suppliers are better able to source quality shafts. One or two makers have come out and said outright that they don't import cues, while others have said explicitly that they do import some of their cues. I personally have high regard for the people in both categories.

I agree. As long as the cue maker is transparent then the buyer knows exactly what he is paying for. Simple as that.

[ken147]

I agree. As long as the cue maker is transparent then the buyer knows exactly what he is paying for. Simple as that.

As long as the cue maker is transparent... They were only transparent AFTER when they were caught out.

[trevs1]

As I said nobody here has been to raymond workshop, I have, I personally helped him with his first lathe, went with him when he was buying it and helped lift it down his stairs out the back and along into his workshop, he now owns 3 lathes all different sizes for different purposes, I have seen his wood stocks, I have been to Derby with him to buy multiple woods, ebony, rosewood, tulip wood, olive wood, snake wood, thuya burr, purple heart rosewood, I have seen his ash shafts before anything is added to them. I don't get the obsession here, it seems all the "old" cue makers don't like new kids on the block and because a few have gone down the Thai route everyone gets branded with the same stick. No wonder raymo does most of his business with China!

To be fair, some of us "old" cue makers have no problem with any "new kids on the block" working with cues and being successful with it too, so i'm not sure who you refer to.

My personal issue with it all lies in the fact that it soon became common knowledge that some of the newer boys were using imported cues (not just shafts mind you, but completely spliced cues) and were then passing these off as their own work entirely, when in truth, it was anything but that. Now, it's not too tricky to see how this happened, because it was a model already being practised and profited on. As a pure business model, yes, I would imagine it works well. However, this makes people question every maker and that bugs me, because I know how hard I work to do things as I do them, but whatever, I can't change that and I'm not going to try.

As for why anyone does business with China, well, I'd imagine that's as much due to the fact that it's where the business is in the main. That's no secret, and so, I'd say it's highly unlikely that a seller of a product would refuse to sell to a particular geographical location, simply on the basis that some of the people from such a place are critical of business methods. After all, it's all about profit isn't it.?

The bottom line is that people know that there are some that import. Whether they know everything there is to know is another matter, but I think many people now have a good idea. Fortunately for those who do things that way, many others do not know, or do not care. As long as things remain that way, they will continue to make money.

[Ramon]

I love all the accusations flying around on this forum when not one of you have ever been to raymond workshop! He came off here cause it was a poisonous forum, people chopping others cues to find out if Thai or not only to be proven wrong. Look at the amount of pros using raymond cues or had work done by him, I can only think of 1 scottish pro that hasn't ever used him and that's ross muir, all others trust him and are happy with the quality of his work either in making them a cue or in repairing/altering their existing cue.

I think cue makers (most of them), treats pros different from ordinary people. and to be honest , They could be doing the right thing !! Cus If a pro is not happy with that cue (playability, craftsmanshp) that would'nt be a good advertising for their business !! Is Not fair , but Unfortunately, this is true for most of the cue makers !!