Oak

[itsnoteasy]

What does the BP gets worse, mean CB, I don't understand .

[vmax4steve]

What does the BP gets worse, mean CB, I don't understand .

Neither does he he knows nothing about timber other than what he has read on the net. I have four oak shafts on the go at the moment and they are more flexible than my ash ones, the weights vary a lot due to differing densities, but the balance points of the raw shafts are practically the same.

Why ?

Well at the moment they all have virtually the same taper and have no hardwood glued on for the butt ends or weight added, each shaft will get something individual and that will change their characteristics. It's up to the maker to get the best out of each cue that he makes, being a player helps as j6 has proved, but he knows, as do I, that making cues that suit only ones own game won't do many favours for the hundreds of potential customers out there.

As long as it's straight, well balanced and well made it will suit most people, what timber it's made from doesn't matter as timber that's very stiff or very flexible can be tapered to suit and the balance point set with a weight.

[Shockerz]

Neither does he he knows nothing about timber other than what he has read on the net. I have four oak shafts on the go at the moment and they are more flexible than my ash ones, the weights vary a lot due to differing densities, but the balance points of the raw shafts are practically the same.

Why ?

Well at the moment they all have virtually the same taper and have no hardwood glued on for the butt ends or weight added, each shaft will get something individual and that will change their characteristics. It's up to the maker to get the best out of each cue that he makes, being a player helps as j6 has proved, but he knows, as do I, that making cues that suit only ones own game won't do many favours for the hundreds of potential customers out there.

As long as it's straight, well balanced and well made it will suit most people, what timber it's made from doesn't matter as timber that's very stiff or very flexible can be tapered to suit and the balance point set with a weight.

If i'm reading this right then there's no real reason not to make cues from oak as you and others seem to be doing it.

I guess what's puzzling me is why it's not become more popular here if ash (from what i'm being told) is getting harder and harder to source locally?

As you are using both woods for cues I thought you may be good for an opinion........

[Shockerz]

Talking of oak, I've just seen these beauties with Oak splices, the splices polish up real nice against the black ebony but retain some oaky character in the grain. And a very good description of the cue from CC, as usual. They also tell you how the cues hit if you ask, by testing them on the table and explaining it over the phone. Nice chaps.



http://www.craftsmancues.com/acatalo...5.html#SID=163

They look really good. Can't work out if it's the oak that I like more or the deep shine.

Either way, nice butt there!

[Cannonball]

You hit the nails on the head. That's partly why I'd go for a Phoenix or O'min over a Britannia Steel anyday, it's the finish, the workmanship; the whole cue!

[itsnoteasy]

Neither does he he knows nothing about timber other than what he has read on the net. I have four oak shafts on the go at the moment and they are more flexible than my ash ones, the weights vary a lot due to differing densities, but the balance points of the raw shafts are practically the same.

Why ?

Well at the moment they all have virtually the same taper and have no hardwood glued on for the butt ends or weight added, each shaft will get something individual and that will change their characteristics. It's up to the maker to get the best out of each cue that he makes, being a player helps as j6 has proved, but he knows, as do I, that making cues that suit only ones own game won't do many favours for the hundreds of potential customers out there.

As long as it's straight, well balanced and well made it will suit most people, what timber it's made from doesn't matter as timber that's very stiff or very flexible can be tapered to suit and the balance point set with a weight.

Aww, I was hoping to learn something there from CB, I thought you maybe got a more gradual balance with a naturally weighted cue and maybe a more abrupt BP with a weighted cue, what difference that would make I have no idea , that's why I asked

[Cannonball]

What does the BP gets worse, mean CB, I don't understand .

Oak is a denser wood than ash in general so a shaft of oak will weigh a bit more than an identical shaft of ash. If you spliced two identical shafts (one of oak and one of ash) with the same hardwood, the oak cue would weight more in principle. The BP would be a tad further forward as well, that's just basic weights and balances. This is because the weight in a cue (if one is added) sits behind the balance point in general, so a denser shaft counterbalances the weight in the cue in favour of the tip end. This is something VMax has forgotten because he's never made a finished cue, yet! Now, this assumes one has old English oak, that is decent quality and dense, not cheap European kiln oak that is. :biggrin-new:

That's why those who have used oak cues talk about a 'heavier' hit, which correlates with a denser shaft.

[itsnoteasy]

Sorry but why would the ballance point be further forward, if oak is heavier, it's heavier all the way along, so the butt end will counterbalance the tip end and would you not end up with a similar ballance point? I could well be wrong here, just asking.
I understand it could well be a heavier cue all round but I'm asking if the ballance points would work out near enough the same.

[Cannonball]

It's because most of the shaft weight is ahead of the splices, the shaft being planed down from the splices onwards to a square (if made traditionally in a one-piece). The weight in a cue is usually embedded under the splices. This makes the area around the tip of the splice important. On all cues there is more ash or maple ahead of the splices than behind it. So if we imagine a holding the shaft (in planed down form before the splice are added) at the planing point, the cue will naturally tip down towards the tip end because there's more wood ahead. Now if you make that wood denser, you will increase the tipping effect. When the splices are added, this tipping effect is still working. The weight in a cue has a handle heavy effect because it's placed behind the natural balance point of the unweighted cue (hence why my 17oz Purist) balances at 18.5". The bigger this weight, the worse things get and the further a cue maker will embed the weight into the cue further up the shaft. They can even add very long splices to achieve a high balance point this because the splices cover up the embedding. Even though the weight is added below the natural BP of the cue, the shaft wood mostly being ahead of the splices counterbalances this effect. Thus the denser the shaft wood, the more counterbalance and higher BP.

[Shockerz]

Nice debate.

I understand it but not easy to put into words!

[itsnoteasy]

I think your going to have to make a shaft out that oak CB to show me what you mean

[Cannonball]

Shockerz and INE, I haven't explained it well, it could be the wine.

Forget the weight. A simple cue is made from ash and ebony. The ebony is denser and heavier and works to shift the BP towards the chamfer end. Most of the shaft is ahead of the splices due to plaining. In the case of a poor 3/4, the butt tends to be solid ebony and this can make the cue even more handle heavy (no ash in the butt at all). Now if you find a material that is denser than ash, it will counterbalance the ebony and shift the BP up the shaft.

Now let's add the weight, which will make the cue chamfer heavy even if it's placed under the tips of the splices (it's usually embedded further down btw). A heavier shaft material will also counterbalance the addition of the weight as the BP of the cue is well ahead of the weight so the heavier the shaft material (denser) the less effect the weight will have of dragging the BP towards the chamfer.

More wine!

INE: I am looking fwd to seeing how VMax gets on with the oak, especially the denser stuff.

[itsnoteasy]

Right I have got you . I was getting confused between a rounded shafts ballance point and a shaft ready for splicing where a lot of it has been planed off for the splices so your right when you say most of the weight is at the tip end and the ebony will counter that, but of course with ash that's less dense there is less weight need to get that ballance.
Cheers CB, unfortunately I don't drink so I've no excuses lol.

[vmax4steve]

Sorry but why would the balance point be further forward, if oak is heavier, it's heavier all the way along, so the butt end will counterbalance the tip end and would you not end up with a similar ballance point?

Correct, as long as the taper is the same which is what I stated earlier.

The hardwood spliced on the end adds some weight and shifts the balance point an inch or two towards the butt end but is also for aesthetics, it makes it look like a cue rather than a pointed stick, a one piece ash shaft with no hardwood spliced on will play just as well, but will be quite light, so a weight inserted at the balance point will make the cue heavier but not feel so. A weight inserted forwards of the balance point will make the cue seem heavier on the bridge hand, a weight inserted behind the balance point will make the cue feel heavier in the grip hand, the choice is yours as to how you like it or have grown used to it.

This is something VMax has forgotten because he's never made a finished cue, yet!

I've actually made several cues, it's just now that I'm starting to take it seriously and get my machinery and workshop together, get your facts right before you start making assumptions.
BTW my oak shafts are not heavier than any of my ash shafts, they are lighter and more flexible, and all came from the same board so are quite uniform as the grain was the same throughout the board, very close tight straight grain. Ash grain varies across the board, the grain can be close and straight one side of the board and further apart and wavy the other side, so ash shafts from the same board will vary in flexibility and density and therefore will make very different cues.
But the balance point of the raw shafts is virtually identical as the tapers are the same, for now, that will change according to what woods I use for the butts, what final taper I apply to each shaft and where I place the weight.

Just notice he's been banned again, whatever has he done to deserve it this time ?

[jrc750]

...Just notice he's been banned again, whatever has he done to deserve it this time ?

I missed that too, anybody know ??