Why are pool and snooker cues so different?

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

I really enjoyed your thoughtful post lone wolf, I did have a couple questions for you/the forums. And some comments for whatever they are worth.

I have just starting reading about deflection recently trying to better understand the subject, which I don't very well. Most the pool cues shafts here that are sold as low deflection have a smaller shaft and tip size, an example being the predator z3 shaft which is 11.85mm, z2 was 11.75mm so I was under the assumption that a smaller ferrule would reduce squirt(deflection). I also thought of squirt and deflection as the same thing? Taper and deflection is very complicated and you are correct you could write a large thesis on taper and deflection and not have the answers. There is a guy who goes by the name of Dr.Dave, he is a professor at Colorado state, and he posts some interesting videos and studies about it. How spot on his info is I have no idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4r0NSsxqo

This one is good. Check out the deflection when he adds weight to the tip end.

https://youtu.be/mXJ7bDafTms

As for squirt/deflection, they are two different things. In crude terms, squirt is the angle the cue ball moves off line after impact, whilst deflection is how quickly the cue gets out of the way.

In even cruder terms, if your cue was a matchstick, the squirt would be very low and the deflection would be very high. If your cue was an iron bar, the squirt would be massive and the deflection minimal. Squirt is the effect the cue has on the OB and deflection is the effect the OB has on the cue.

The two terms have become synonymous with each other and low deflection shafts have made the subject easier to understand, so deflection has sort of made the word squirt redundant (even though it's a different thing).

[DeanH]

I am trying to find a test that measures the flexibility of wood, but haven't seen anything, if you guys know of anything please share

Great minds think alike, lol

oops, did not notice that before

[DeanH]

I wasn't going to post that first ;wink:

I don't mind taking it for the team!
:biggrin:

[eihi]

Firstly. American Pool at pro level requires more accuracy when making certain shots than in Snooker. As we know, in snooker the player rarely has to commit themselves to make position on one particular ball especially when there is more than one red on the table. American pool is a rotational game (especially 9&10ball) where the player HAS to take each ball in sequence - these sequential patterns can leave very tricky shots and requires a whole love of creative thought - more so than in snooker.

I always think of snooker as requiring much greater accuracy, but you make an excellent point here about moving the ball around, this shot by Reyes is mind blowing.

[the lone wolf]

That would go down like a lead balloon with most of the knuckle draggers around here, who'll snort and tell people to go practise. They wouldn't want the evil dr dave there, either.

OI could call it the Led Zeppelin Expo

[the lone wolf]

Brilliant! This game has so much potential for technology.

Hope that robot doesn't pattern rack!

By the numbers - it probably does :snooker:

[the lone wolf]

I always think of snooker as requiring much greater accuracy, but you make an excellent point here about moving the ball around, this shot by Reyes is mind blowing.

And that was an intended shot!

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

By the numbers - it probably does :snooker:

Clearly cheating with that striped ball at the back, though. That's all pool needs - even slower raking...

[the lone wolf]

Clearly cheating with that striped ball at the back, though. That's all pool needs - even slower raking...

Hehe.. Programable to each and every milli-second! :hurt:

[Catch 22]

Firstly. American Pool at pro level requires more accuracy when making certain shots than in Snooker. As we know, in snooker the player rarely has to commit themselves to make position on one particular ball especially when there is more than one red on the table. American pool is a rotational game (especially 9&10ball) where the player HAS to take each ball in sequence - these sequential patterns can leave very tricky shots and requires a whole love of creative thought - more so than in snooker.

With that in mind I will try to answer your Ninja questions
1. Larger ferrule / tip size is not completely related to shaft size (I'll answer this further in Q2). The need for a larger contact surface area in American pool cal only be appreciated when the game is played seriously to a standard of play. The majority of players in the UK are casual pool players and therefore have not leaned the rudiments of the game in order to improve. By improving ones American pool game, we bein to understand.
a) deflection
b) CB control
c) rail control
E.g. In American pool - when the CB is close to a rail - the player may not want eliminate as much squirt placed on the CB- squirt means unnecessary side. A larger ferrule 12.5-13mm will do this successfully- anything below and the player may have to think about controls squirt.

2. TAPER - A science unto its own
All elite cue makers have there own shaft taper. My particular cue master (sadly not with us anymore) spent 3 years developing his own tapered engineered cue shaft.
The American use the loop bridge, which leads to why they use tapered shafts.
E.g. A McDermott (the largest cue maker in the USA) shaft is tapered in such a deliberate fashion; it is easier and feel more natural using the loop bridge compared to our snooker open bridge. This is intentional - so again, appreciation of tapers can only be appreciated when a players skill set reaches a high standard.
One could write a pheasis on taper and deflection and still not have all the answers. Which is why my answers will not explore defection - a complete subject area of its own!

3. Yes correct! Pool cues are heavier because the balls are heavier. One can use an ordinary snooker cue to play pool, but on every shot there is a feel that the shaft could crack at any given time. So would one really use their 9mm JP playing American pool? Of course not.

4. AESTHETICS
Since beginning to play American pool, I went on a road of discovery. My first playing cue was a £50 Olver Ortman signature cue, which hit very good - but it wasn't a player. Then I met new people and players whilst on my journey and learnt more of handmade cues and different inlays. A pool cue cover 5 aesthetic points, known as the pool cue anatomy:
1. Butt cap
2. Butt sleeve
3. Handle
4. Forearm
5. Joint

Pictures of the pool cue anatomy can easily be found on Google - am not gonna waste time trying to upload photos here...
All of the points can be studied and designed specifically to the customers choice. The great cue makers are maticulous in offering great choices to their customers.

I have several custom cues, all of which are different and personal to me. One particular cue was designed in 2006. As a life long Liverpoolfc fan, you can imagine I was still giddy after that heroic champions league win in 2005- so I had the cue designed with the number 5 as a conceptual influence. 5 points, 5 inlays etc... The cue also features family links and dedicated features. My joint protectors have my parents initials on them, so when they are not in use they screw together which I think is quite cool as they have been married now going on 60 years! When I travel my family is always near me.

That's just coverin aesthetics - the real technical stuff is below the aesthetic sleeves; of which all cue makes have their own way of working. So the pool cue is made up of two appraisals:
1. The cue structure, which to the naked eye can't be seen.
2. The 5 cue sleeves the aesthetically makes the cue look beautiful and sexy.

-----
Conclusion:
Stuart Bingham has begun to use a cue that is now offering aesthetic appeal as well as high craftsmanship. I believe there is a market for such a cue because the technical specification can be replicated with technical ease.
E.g. If I break my McDermott cue, I simply call McDermott who will either fix it or replace it. The replacement cue can be made to the exact specifications of the previous including shaft size and taper. The is is the wonder of CNC lathing... A debate and thread for another day!
---
PS
sorry for any typos, I'm in bed whilst writing this.... :snooker:

Great post mate. Thanks

[old school]

Maple vs Ash in American cues may have a root in history . If you look at the Brunswick Balke Collander firm you will note that Brunswick started in 1845 , then in 1874 Balke was acquired then later that year Collander , so that the cushion technology could be added to the portfolio . In 1884 the company as we now know it came into being , I can not recall ever seeing a Brunswick based cue or for that matter a Tittleist or any of the historical manufacturers cues in anything but Maple , so maybe a precedent was set all those years ago . Just conjecture on my behalf but a possibility all the same , " if it aint broke , dont try to fix it " .

[DeanH]

Why are pool and snooker cues so different?

great info
so does that mean the US pool fraternity are stuck in the dark ages for their choice of shaft wood? shock-horror
a joke :biggrin:

[blahblah01]

This one is good. Check out the deflection when he adds weight to the tip end.

https://youtu.be/mXJ7bDafTms

As for squirt/deflection, they are two different things. In crude terms, squirt is the angle the cue ball moves off line after impact, whilst deflection is how quickly the cue gets out of the way.

In even cruder terms, if your cue was a matchstick, the squirt would be very low and the deflection would be very high. If your cue was an iron bar, the squirt would be massive and the deflection minimal. Squirt is the effect the cue has on the OB and deflection is the effect the OB has on the cue.

The two terms have become synonymous with each other and low deflection shafts have made the subject easier to understand, so deflection has sort of made the word squirt redundant (even though it's a different thing).

Interesting stuff: so more action on the CB with Maple with power?

[old school]

To be honest Dean , manufacturing process might also factor in . I own an Abe Rich cue which is generally considered to be " hand made " because it was turned by hand on a lathe , rather than milling or cnc machinery . I believe Maple , because it is a closer and more uniform grain and generally it is a denser wood , is easier to turn than Ash because with Ash the grain is relatively " all over the place ". Historically American cues have been and still are , turned rather than planed , from a commercial point of view less wastage i.e. Maple tears less than Ash , then Maple would be the timber to use to maximise profit and ensure uniformity in taper and standard of shafts . Machinery makes mass production possible , even in the late 1800 / early 1900s and mass production = profit via economies of scale . Small scale builders who turn out small quantities of cues , controlling quality on a micro managed basis will always produce perceived " high value " cues , which is why custom makers in both the UK and the USA can charge a premiuim for their products . Of course , without a time machine to go back , I cant ask them the relevant questions on timber choice and manufacturing process , although I believe I have put a relevant view point across.

[DeanH]

Why are pool and snooker cues so different?

a good view point