Is wood grain naturally black?

[Wity]

Adr's back, came on msn earlier and confirmed he never uses filler. He'll probably post summat later. 490 emails he's had in a week away lol .

You pair both have mastercraft then? dont you ever feel as though you've bought a new car knowing its been dented and filled in. I know I would no matter how fine the filling is.

[trevs1]

I'm kind of gutted this thread had come to an amicable ending, I was hoping there'd be a dual with pistols at the end of it........shame.

As for the question on fillers/sealers

I would say that 'virtually' all ash cues would have some sort of grain filler/sealer applied to them during finishing. As has already been pretty accurately put, ash is an open grained timber, so, without sealing up that grain, the texture of the timber can be quite coarse.

I'd also say that all makers of high quality cues do, to some degree, end up with a 'filled' effect to the grain of an ash shaft, even if they say they don't use fillers. The reason I say that is because it would be quite difficult to maintain the openess of the grain throughout the whole finishing process.
To achieve the best possible finish for an ash cue, the grain is better when it is less coarse and open, so to that end, a 'filled' or 'clogged' grain would be beneficial.

I would like to point out also, just to clarify, that by filling the grain of an ash cue, it in no way makes the cue inferior, quite the contrary in fact, it makes it better. Neither is it done to cover defects or to try to fool the buyer into thinking that the shaft is something it isn't. This process is done to enhance, and 'properly' finish a piece of timber that in the specialist finishing business is known as a 'hungry' timber. Without a filled grain, an ash cue would not feel as good to most players, even though they would not be able to tell you why one cue finished in this way felt better than the next.


Hope this helps a little.

[cueman]

You pair both have mastercraft then? dont you ever feel as though you've bought a new car knowing its been dented and filled in. I know I would no matter how fine the filling is.

I've had a Mastercraft but didn't like it, nothing to do with the finish, although there was a problem with dye used on the butt! Cue just didn't give me the kind of response I like. I'm particularly fussy with cues, it would take something pretty special to make me change from my Parris cue which I've had for 11 years.

[Jlaix]

I'm particularly fussy with cues, it would take something pretty special to make me change from my Parris cue which I've had for 11 years.

It would take something pretty special for me to use a Parris.. bought one a year or so ago... Went to the gents having took a few shots with it down at the club, and noticed my chin's dark from the dye they used.

[Semih_Sayginer]

this turned out to be a good thread. funny, and informative

[trevs1]

It would take something pretty special for me to use a Parris.. bought one a year or so ago... Went to the gents having took a few shots with it down at the club, and noticed my chin's dark from the dye they used.

I think I could catagorically say that any mark on you was not from any dye.

If there was anything left on your skin from the cue, it would be dust or dirt and not dye.

[Wity]

Wood dye doest't come off onto the skin anyways theres a fiver here for anyone who:delete:delete:delete:

Phew ! that was close.

[Qubit]

Wood dye doest't come off onto the skin anyways theres a fiver here for anyone who:delete:delete:delete:

Phew ! that was close.

heh heh, lol.

[ADR147]

The grain MUST be filled somehow. There are numerous ways of doing so, but it must be done. It can even be done by oiling the cue and then sanding and repeating, effectively creating a slurry which gradually fills the grain. But it MUST be done in some way.

good post - this is an interesting topic - i will write something once i have read all the posts!

[Sam147]

Went to the gents having took a few shots with it down at the club, and noticed my chin's dark from the dye they used.

wouldn't u say that if the dye came off onto your chin, it would also leave marks onto your bridge hand? most probably dirt/dust as trevs1 pointed out...

Wood dye doest't come off onto the skin anyways theres a fiver here for anyone who:delete:delete:delete:

Phew ! that was close.

good one, Wity... PMSL

[Semih_Sayginer]

wouldn't u say that if the dye came off onto your chin, it would also leave marks onto your bridge hand?

i never rub my cue under my chin with the same part of the cue that i bridge under, unless im using my cue to scratch my itchy chin


(know what you mean though)

[ADR147]

ok - i will add my 2 pence worth! - firstly i think there is an issue with language, the term wood filler gives very much the wrong impression of the process and that is maybe why people don't say they use it but yes most cues will have some sort of filling to stabilise the grain. (the australian andy bream uses ebony dust as mentioned somewhere else in this thread he calls it back filling i think.)

secondly mike wooldridges cues are some of the darkest (and nicest!) grains on the market so he does do something to them although i have not actually asked him personally what. i think that mike does not want you to get the impression that his cues have been spayed with varnish etc and that all the finish you see is natural, which is true, and you have to be careful when doing self promotion because some people would be put off if they knew how a cue was made, for example its a fact that these days most cues are made on a lathe because hand planing is stupidly time consuming and does not ensure a better result anyway and they are usually made in 2 halves with the butt made seperately from the shaft because it gives the cue maker more chance of finding a decent shaft and the whole process is easier and cheaper and of course in actual fact it makes no difference to the playability of the cue but a lot of people don't like the idea of these sort of modern changes.

lastly isn't it fun to see wity eating some humble pie after having dished out so much in the past! at least he knows how to take it like a man! nice one wity

[Wity]

I'll take a guess that Mike's cue oil which i've heard is very much like raw linseed may have some added darkening ingredient ??? When he gets round to starting up the forum on his site he says is coming he might explain it.

Would be great if he were to chip in here though as i'm sure all of us would agree the art of quality snooker cue making is still pretty much full of little secrets. The more the veil is lifted the deeper Joe Public will dig into his pocket for a good cue I reckon. The yank cuebuillders have proved that. They seem to be very open as to how they do what they do and although they have their own private cuebuiders forum on the net they seem to be inundated with orders, many have waiting lists years beyond belief, and their market is saturated with cheap imports far far more than ours.

I'm not really concerned about the colour of an ash cue's grain but I remain puzzled by the use of grain filler, disturbed even. In my mind if an ash shafts poures are so big that a good soaking of the shaft with linseed oil or the like especially with a further coat of wax on top is not sufficient to fill them in then I imagine it's too open grain and would not give a solid enough feel to it.
Thats the sort of wood I'd expect a cuemaker to reject not fill in with what is effectively wood filler as no matter how fine it is it's still basically sawdust and glue. Definately not what I would like to discover has been used on a cue i'd bought even one costing a mere fiver.

[trevs1]

Andrew,

I don't think there was any confusion over the terminology, as nobody mentioned the words 'wood filler' in offering a reply.

The initial accurate responses referred to filling the grain with "some sort of filling process" and "a filler applied to make the wood smooth".
Also, if Andy Bream does use ebony dust to fill any and all ash shafts, that's a lot of ebony dust he'll require.

It seems a little contradictory to state that Wooldridge cues have a very dark grain when he himself states he prefers a 'natural sanded and oiled finish, where the grain takes on its own colour and ages naturally'.
I think this is clear indication that some form of filling is done, whether that be with a 'filler' or not is something I wouldn't comment on. But, it's clear from the images on his own website that the grain (or to be more accurate, the growth rings) have a colour not found in ash naturally.

This filling (and colouring) and sealing process done in ash shafts is done to enhance the grain (or growth rings) of the timber, and also, to aid good finishing of the timber. If the wood was left in its natural state and just sanded and then oiled, it would be very open grained and pale in colour. This would not be a finish that practically any player would like either the appearance or the feel of, and, this is the reason why it's done as it is.

It is true in many ways that not all cuemakers are happy to speak of how and why things are done as they are. Perhaps in some respects that's a shame, as I'm sure that the people buying these cues would maybe have a better insight and even more respect for the cues some makers produce.

[trevs1]

In my mind if an ash shafts poures are so big that a good soaking of the shaft with linseed oil or the like especially with a further coat of wax on top is not sufficient to fill them in then I imagine it's too open grain and would not give a solid enough feel to it.

The reason ash is used for shafts is not because of its grain but is due to its weight, stiffness and durability. It is a strong timber which is not brittle, is readily available and takes impact well.

Much of the above qualities are displayed in maple also, this is why it's used as an alternative to ash.

Open grained timber does not mean faulty or defective timber, it's just the nature of the species of wood. Ash can and does vary in its density and even openess of the grain, BUT, it is NOT the deciding factor as to whether a piece of ash is highly suited to making an outstanding cue shaft.

If I had to say what three main points of that were, it would be -

Colour - Grain - Density.........not necessarily in that order.